tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post1141423842890298164..comments2023-10-20T06:41:31.943-07:00Comments on Visits to Candyland: Whore of BabylonElena LaVictoirehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18108910015959872763noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-24067059427914566522007-09-18T04:09:00.000-07:002007-09-18T04:09:00.000-07:00Perhaps we should put up a different topic about t...Perhaps we should put up a different topic about the differences in Fundamentalists and Evangelicals (although that's not really the purpose of this blog.)<BR/><BR/>My point in posting this is that there is no biblical (Literal or figurative) defense for referring to the Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon.Elena LaVictoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18108910015959872763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-31571128191604394842007-09-17T17:41:00.000-07:002007-09-17T17:41:00.000-07:00The term was first made popular by the articles wr...<I>The term was first made popular by the articles written and adhered to by some, but many other people had been 'fundamentalists' in practice without it every being termed or organized.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I was referring to when the term was coined, around 1910. <BR/><BR/><I>There were many small groups of people, home churches, that did not affiliate with any denominational teachings, who practised 'fundamental' aherance from the time of the first teaching, whether it be pre- or post- crucifiction.</I><BR/><BR/>From my point of view, there is just no historic evidence for this. We have lots of preserved writings from down the ages, usually titled "Against the Heresies" that tell us what various groups believed through their arguments against them. <BR/><BR/>Be sure to write up a full review of Currie's book on your blog. I'd love to know where you disagree with him, or feel he is misrepresenting! <BR/><BR/>I've gotta go, dh wants the computer.Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120027058653022897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-55075729905156891452007-09-17T16:22:00.000-07:002007-09-17T16:22:00.000-07:00OK, that link did not work at all. The article in...OK, that link did not work at all. The article in which Kelly talks about the books is on top of this one, called Former priests and Nuns.<BR/><BR/>I have not yet figured out how to do a link in a comment, and I thought I had found it, but I still don't know how!motherofmanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877187218514833866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-87944810243858632402007-09-17T16:15:00.000-07:002007-09-17T16:15:00.000-07:00I don't mind outing myself. Kelly sent me books, ...I don't mind outing myself. Kelly sent me books, and it was such a surprise. I opened the box and there were these books on Catholicism, and I thought, "I didn't order these", so I checked the label again (because last year CBD sent me someone else's order) and it had my name on it, and I finally found the gift note (it was pretty small, so I hope they didn't charge you extra for that) and they were from Kel. I sent her books (and an apron) in return. We have been having our own discussion for a while, and this way we have printed, tangible material to discuss. <BR/><BR/>She emailed me last weekend and said she wanted to post her reactions to the books here, but she would keep me anonymous. I don't mind at all if people know it was me.<BR/><BR/>So, Kelly sent me Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, which is by Currie. And then in this post she stated that she was willing to bet that fundamentalists could feel the same about his book as she did about the former-catholic writings. So that was what I was referring to- as a fundamentalist, I cannot say I have had the experiences he has had. And I would love to know what church he attended (yes, that would be the shoe-box I so dread) just so I could have a better idea what doctrines he learned, because again, I have a hard time seeing 'fundamentalist' in his arguments.motherofmanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877187218514833866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-6906409301135274792007-09-17T15:47:00.000-07:002007-09-17T15:47:00.000-07:00Mother of Many-What are you refering to when calli...Mother of Many-<BR/>What are you refering to when calling Currie a loon? Was there a post some where that I missed? A link? I might have missed it and would love to read it also as I enjoy David Currie's books. I have yet to find him loony but I will alway be ready to learn more.Erika S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01623788886272721393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-9608797465393702732007-09-17T15:43:00.000-07:002007-09-17T15:43:00.000-07:00Motherofmany, I didn't mean to sound defensive. :...Motherofmany, I didn't mean to sound defensive. :) Really, I just wanted to make sure that you didn't think that I was trying to misrepresent what a particular group of people believes. That was not the goal of my original statement, and I am very sorry if it came across that way. But thank you for the great clarification. :)KitKathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05500725714511307556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-31242387282673727332007-09-17T14:37:00.000-07:002007-09-17T14:37:00.000-07:00NO! Please do not call me an evangelical either. ...NO! Please do not call me an evangelical either. I may believe in evangelizing, but that term also puts me into someone else's shoebox, and I certainly do not fit. <BR/><BR/>I would just say some people believe whatever, since again these things cannot be confined to specific church doctrine. ;)motherofmanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877187218514833866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-1414739327588135292007-09-17T14:35:00.000-07:002007-09-17T14:35:00.000-07:00Please don't feel that you need to defend your sta...Please don't feel that you need to defend your statements, as I am not upset by them. I was just pointing out that those two ideas are not exclusively nor inclusively fundamentalist. That is another good point as to why we cannot say everything is either Catholic or Protestant. It is just too narrow to include all the diffetrent points of view. There are some Methodists, some Baptists, and I am sure, some Lutherans who feel that way. I personally do not know of any church where is it actual doctrine.<BR/><BR/>And that is also why I would not claim a denomination, because to do so automatically brings a 'mold' to people's minds as far as what I believe. I prefer to glean it for myself because one day I will answer for my choices, and I know I won't be able to blame anyone but myself since I have the opportunity and the ability to study.motherofmanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877187218514833866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-30774628514955436952007-09-17T14:27:00.000-07:002007-09-17T14:27:00.000-07:00Actually, fundamentalists were divided from the ve...Actually, fundamentalists were divided from the very beginning. The term was first made popluar by the articles written and adhered to by some, but many other people had been 'fundamentalists' in practice without it every being termed or organized. And many refused to sign articles, stating that it was not permitted to swear an oath, and also that each person was accountabwel to God himself and not to other men for what he believed. The very strict interpretations later become known as Puritan. That's another reason the statements that "we were all Catholic until the Reformation" drive me bananas. There were many small groups of people, home churches, that did not affiliate with any denominational teachings, who practised 'fundamental' aherance from the time of the first teaching, whether it be pre- or post- crucifiction. <BR/><BR/>Both of the websites I posted said that the Catholic church was not the whore of Babylon. The statements he made were that what he believed to be false teachings of the Catholic Church made it part of the prophesied apostasy. A major reason for that belief is the attempt by the Catholic Coucil to bring all religions under one heading, including the Muslim faith which, while agreeing Jesus was a prophet, deny his diety. So the Catholic church is becoming aligned with a group that denied the incarnation and the trinity.<BR/><BR/>http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/popekiss.html (although the writer of this site does believe that Rome is the Harlot of Revelations)<BR/><BR/>http://www.asianews.it/index.php?art=2871&l=en <BR/><BR/>http://www.isna.net/index.php?backPID=5&id=35&tt_news=799motherofmanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877187218514833866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-59683568668604025502007-09-17T14:13:00.000-07:002007-09-17T14:13:00.000-07:00http://members.aol.com/johnprh/whore2.htmlThis goe...http://members.aol.com/johnprh/whore2.html<BR/><BR/>This goes into a little bit of the history that is discussed in "Rapture" that I mentioned earlier.KitKathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05500725714511307556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-3408656524435361632007-09-17T13:52:00.000-07:002007-09-17T13:52:00.000-07:00Whew! Tough crowd! I do understand that no one w...Whew! Tough crowd! I do understand that no one would like their beliefs negatively pigeonholed (sp?). I used the term "Fundamentalist" (with the addition of the word "some" because I did not want to make the sweeping statement that ALL Fundamentalists believe this) in my statement because my Protestant background was more of a direct teaching from Martin Luther (hence "Lutheran"). Now I KNOW that we could get into the whole "Martin Luther called the Pope the anti-Christ" thing when discussing Lutheran theology. But I was just making a small point and not going into detail. My key word was 'some'. Would you prefer, motherofmany, that I use the term Evangelical? Honestly, I have heard them used interchangably (as Kelly mentioned) so I will correct myself in the future if this would be the more appropriate term.KitKathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05500725714511307556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-4085010284568395962007-09-17T13:40:00.000-07:002007-09-17T13:40:00.000-07:00THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH: Though this religious o...<I>THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH: Though this religious organisation has many Bible-based teachings and millions of true believers, sad to say it is also riddled with pagan beliefs and practices. These include the Worship of Mary, (a practice patterned on the Babylonian worship of the Virgin Queen of Heaven) idol, image and relic worship, the use of the rosary and the Sign of the Cross, the payment of prayers for the dead, the enforced Celibacy of the priesthood, the doctrine of purgatory etc. These and other pagan practices in the Roman Catholic church classify her as one of the whore's daughters -</I><BR/><BR/>OK, but as the as Colin Donovan pointed out, this article is using criteria for Whore of Babylon that aren't scriptural!<BR/><BR/>1. Geographically- The Vatican does not fit the reference in the bible.<BR/><BR/>2. Babylon refers to a pagan power that persecutes the people of God- that doesn't fit either.<BR/><BR/>3. The antichrist will deny the incarnation and the trinity.<BR/><BR/>The writer of that web site may not like Mary, the rosary, relics, purgatory etc. (chances are he doesn't understand them) but to pull them all together and say, "Yep, that means Whore of Babylon" is a REAL STRETCH when you look at the actual biblical passages.Elena LaVictoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18108910015959872763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-55069185304290156652007-09-17T13:08:00.000-07:002007-09-17T13:08:00.000-07:00Well, kitkat did say why some fundamentalists thin...Well, kitkat did say why <I>some</I> fundamentalists think that way. <BR/><BR/>Originally, a fundamentalist was someone who agreed with a set of articles called The Fundamentals, that was published around the turn of the (previous) century. It was a reaction against modernism in the Christian church.<BR/><BR/>I would certainly agree with your definition, Amy. Trying to differentiate between fundamentalists and evangelicals is sometimes difficult, because people often use the words interchangeably.<BR/><BR/>What really irritates me, is when the media refers to <B>Muslim</B> fundamentalists. I'm pretty sure that they would not agree with things like Jesus being the Son of God, etc. :)Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120027058653022897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-36975933016133588632007-09-17T12:58:00.000-07:002007-09-17T12:58:00.000-07:00http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/end.html go to http:...http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/end.html <BR/><BR/>go to http://www.sbs777.org.uk/, click on Bible Prophesy, and then The Whore of Babylonmotherofmanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877187218514833866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-69838253317910719392007-09-17T12:44:00.000-07:002007-09-17T12:44:00.000-07:00I would not say that either beliefs are fundamenta...I would not say that either beliefs are fundamentalists teachings, but simply ideas some people hold in all different denominations. The term fundamentalist (which I think tends to be used when referring to an non-catholic church lately) means being firmly grounded in the basics of the Bible, and is not a denomination or set of beliefs in itself. <BR/><BR/>There is not a direct answer about either topic in the Bible. I had never heard of the Rapture until I was an adult, and I had not heard that the Catholic Church was the anti-christ, but only the belief that they would be part of the end-times 'one-world' church. So these cannot be called fundamentalist teachings, because they are not, even if some fundamentalists hold to them. Just as pro-choice Catholics do not make abortion rights a teaching of the church.motherofmanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877187218514833866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-853207333094285361.post-39835442513779001762007-09-17T10:30:00.000-07:002007-09-17T10:30:00.000-07:00If I may, I would like to recommend that folks rea...If I may, I would like to recommend that folks read "Rapture: The End Times Error that leaves the Bible Behind" by David Currie. He has a great section in this very long book about why the Catholic Church is NOT the Whore of Babylon and exactly who is. (Actually who it was, as the book uses scripture and good 'ol history lessons to explore the prophecies in Daniel and Revelations.) Great book! Too much stuff in it for me to be able to abbreviate it here, but it is definitely worth reading. I learned alot from reading it, and I came from a Protestant background. (I was raised Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. We were never taught that the Catholic Church was the whore of Babylon or that we were all going to be raptured away. I had to learn both why some fundamentalists think this way AND why this was incorrect. Whew!!)KitKathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05500725714511307556noreply@blogger.com