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Wednesday, October 24, 2007

Apostolic Baptists

I recently had an exchange with a blogger, who cited a quote a Cardinal Hosius from the sixteenth century, which she felt proved that Baptists have been around as long as, well, John the Baptist.

In case anyone has run across this anywhere, you can read a good counter-argument on Sean's Faith website.

An excerpt of his research:

Cardinal Hosius and that infamous "statement": Is it genuine?

The statement reads as follows:

"Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)" Quoted in the "Trail of Blood" by J. Carroll.

Does this statement exist in his complete works? No.

The complete works of Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius were published in two volumes in 1584 in Cologne, under the title "Opera Omnia". The complete title reads as follows:

D.STANISLAI HOSII, S R E CARDINALIS, MAIORIS POENITENTIARII; ET EPISCOPI VARMIENSIS

"Opera Omnia in Duos divisa tomos, quorum primus ab ipso auctore plurimus subinde in locis, integris & dimidijs paginis sic auctus & recognitus, ut novum opus fere censeri possit. Secundum autem totus novus, nuncque primus typis excusus."

Coloniae
Apud Maternum Cholinum
Anno M. D. L XXXIIII

The purported statement is nowhere to be found in the letters of Cardinal Hosius

  • There is no section titled "Apud Opera" among Hosius� complete works. And there is no letter of that name. So the reference "Letters, Apud Opera" is apparently meaningless. Similarly, I could find no publication of his with this title.
  • I decided to check all of Cardinal Hosius� letters for references to the Anabaptists. The section in his "Opera Omnia" entitled "Liber Epistelarum" contains all of Cardinal Hosius� letters, 277 in total, written in Latin. I have read through all of these letters, and in only 12 of them (letters XXVIII, XLI, XLIII, CV, CXVI, CXXVIII, CXXIX, CXXXIV, CL, CLVII, CLVIII, and CLX) is there any mention of the Anabaptists. In none of them is to be found the statement cited at the top. To all intents and purposes, this statement appears to be a fake.
  • Nowhere in the letters of Hosius are the "reformers" referred to as such. Rather, they are referred to as "Lutherani", "Calvinisti", "Zuingliani" and, especially in his other works, "haeretici". The purported statement of Hosius uses language he never uses in his "Opera omnia", and so its authenticity must be called into question.
  • The citation by various Baptist websites of two completely different purported statements by Cardian Hosuis, both given the same page reference, adds to the doubt about the genuineness of either. (The second purported statement is quoted in Note 1 below). The said statements are purported to be found on pages 112, 113 of "Apud Opera". However, only one statement can be found crossing over from page 112 to 113. How can you get two different statements, both starting on page 112 and both ending on page 113? (The only possibility would be if one statement were embedded in the other, but that is clearly not the case here.)

67 comments:

Sallie said...
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Kelly said...

I took his notice to say that you needed to provide the copyright if you were copying the information in its entirety. I just used an excerpt, and linked credit back to his website. Feel free to e-mail him personally, if you feel I've violated his request.

aine said...

Kelly, thank you for the link to Sean's page. Isn't that a beautiful painting of the Blessed Mother and the Baby Jesus?

Kelly, you did not publish the article in its entirety,and provided a link to the article and webiste, and also clearly refered to the author by name. Sean's website says:

"Copyright notice: With the exception of those articles written by third parties, all articles on this site may be reproduced for private use and for evangelistic purposes, provided authorship is acknowledged, but may on no account be used for commercial purposes"

Sounds as if you have adhered to Sean's copyright guidelines.JMHO

Sean Hyland, and other Catholic bloggers who battle bigotry and hate on the web, ROCK! You go, Kelly!

Sallie said...
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Elena said...

Yes Kelly, I took the copyright info the same as you. I believe the author of the web site wants to ENCOURAGE it's use and just wants proper credit back. He specifically asks that his research not be sold. Since you did not do that, and since you properly credited him with a link, I don't see any foul here.

Elena said...

Well what question did you ask specifically Sallie? I must have missed it.

I think this research does a very thorough and reasoned response that certainly debunks the myth of apostolic Baptists.

If you have something different in the form of research Sallie now is the time to use it.

In other words, put up or shut up.

Elena said...

I just want to point one thing out here about Sallie and the way she conducts herself in these debates.

In my first encounter wtih Sallie, she TOTALLY avoided having to deal with her "great" assessment of Maryann Collin's "witness" by trying to say I was deceiving her. Even when I cleared that up and apologized she found another strawman to dance with. She never EVER really dealt with the original topic, at least not in any depth or substance.

Here I think Kelly really has her pinned to the wall. So in typical Sallie fashion, she's going to starts swinging with anything she can, namely the stupid copyright strawman, because she cannot deal with the topic with any substance or depth in a manner that anyone is going to find compelling.

And that's what this particular part of the blogosphere does. They bash, they make fantastic claims, but they never stand up to a challenge. Candy does it by just ignoring or deleting the challenges. Sallie does it by finding a strawman instead.

Don't fall into the Sallie trap. Stay focused on the topic and hold her feet to the fire on this one.

Sallie said...
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Sallie said...
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Sallie said...
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Elena said...

Ya know Sallie, if you read the commenting guidelines you would understand that it's YOUR TURN to do some homework and come back with something that actually discredits or disproves Kelly's.

I'll help you out. Let's take this section:

Does this statement exist in his complete works? No.


The complete works of Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius were published in two volumes in 1584 in Cologne, under the title "Opera Omnia". The complete title reads as follows:

D.STANISLAI HOSII, S R E CARDINALIS, MAIORIS POENITENTIARII; ET EPISCOPI VARMIENSIS

"Opera Omnia in Duos divisa tomos, quorum primus ab ipso auctore plurimus subinde in locis, integris & dimidijs paginis sic auctus & recognitus, ut novum opus fere censeri possit. Secundum autem totus novus, nuncque primus typis excusus."

Coloniae
Apud Maternum Cholinum
Anno M. D. L XXXIIII


If I were on your side, I would try to find a reference that does indeed show that this is included in his complete work. I'd not the source and the page number.


See, Kellie backed up her position, so now it's YOUR TURN. It's okay to say you don't know. It's okay to say you need to get back to us on that. Doing your faithful side step isn't going to work this time.

Elena said...

Oh, and again, you misrepresent the facts of what really happened because that works for you..

Nope. BTDT. You were wrong and too arrogant to admit it. Moving on...

With Christian sisters like you, I'm sure many are glad to go to hell...

Whatever. Either come back with some research Sallie to make your point I think we can consider this one settled.

Sallie said...
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Sallie said...
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unknown anon said...

Sigh.

Everyone has a perception of how they have been treated.

It's amazing, though, how the fantasies of persecution show up after the statements in question disappear....

As for the "one website" challenge, dear Sallie, how many did you bring to the discussion? You haven't even bothered to make YOUR citations here. And since you were not referenced by name, how do we (the readers of this blog) actually know what you said?

As a point of fact, you yourself only posted one reference on your blog....one which says that YOU want it to say.

Hello pot......

Sallie said...
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Kelly said...

Sallie, since you said that you happen to be reading Trail of Tears right now, maybe you could check to see if the citation is what Sean claims it to be.

I didn't put debunked in the headline. It merely says "Apostolic Baptists."

Elena said...

Let me be perfectly clear Sallie. Your next post on this thread is either ...

1. "I don't have any proof, but let me look into it and get back to you."

2. "I have something that proves the statement is authentic and here it is..."

3. Or "Wow Kelly, looks like you were right."

Anything other than that, particularly ad hominem attacks against me or Kelly, is going to be deleted.

Don't even think about whining about it. It's in our side bar commenting guidelines.

Besides, you removed all of my comments on your blog. And remember, this is much more of a heads up than most of us ever got from Candy's blog. Goose/gander and all of that.

Elena said...

Kelly, if you feel the need to put up a disclaimer, I think it is only fair to also add that this statement from Cardinal Hosius is an "alleged" statement. There is no solid evidence that he really said or wrote that and a lot of evidence that perhaps it does not, at least not in the sources which have been cited for it. I'll leave it to you to add that however.

Sallie said...
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Elena said...

That is EXACTLY what you did here and claimed it as authentic. You have no idea if it is or not but you put DEBUNKED in grand headlines.

Just like you have no idea whether that is an authentic quote from Cardinal Hosius or not. Yet you felt free to use it. So now that someone has given you some research that perhaps this quote isn't even authentic your tactic is to ignore the research! Sallie, if it's true dig around and find some proof.

Sallie said...
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Elena said...

Sallie, she gave proof. Sean Hyland translates stuff professionally for the Catholic Encyclopedia, EWTN, and Catholic Answers. Do a 2 second Google search (I'm having deja vu!!) and you'll see his name all over the place as "translated by."

Other than physically getting the book, driving to your home and sitting with you to painstakingly go through it line by line to come up with, "yep, it's not in there" what else would be proof?

Well I'll tell you. A Baptist, atheist, or some other secular scholar who has done the same research and come up with another result. If Hyland is wrong, surely someone with credentials would have called him on it.

Elena said...

Actually, I emailed Sean and ask him to help me find the source documents he used since he didn't link to them either...

Excellent!

Elena said...

I've also invited Mr. Hyland to join or discussion and give us some insight into his research and work. Hopefully, he wil join us.

aine said...
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aine said...

The text of "Trail of Blood" by J.H. Carroll is available online, and yes, the citation is there.

Perhaps Sallie couldn't find her copy?

Kelly said...

I added another allegedly, but it's a pretty short entry, so I'm not sure how many more I can squeeze in. Maybe a "person allegedly named Sallie"? Sallie seems sensitive to the "debunked" word, and I'm taking Sean at his word, so I don't mind tossing one in for her.

I just wanted to note an irony in all of this. Sallie said that she didn't want to continue discussing this so I just posted this entry, as I said in it, in case anyone else had run across the quote and didn't know about Mr. Hyland's website.

I specifically didn't post Sallie's blog because she seemed very unhappy when Elena did so previous, had said more than once that she didn't want to debate, and I didn't really want people flooding over to her blog to open up what she considered a closed issue.

Now she's over here stirring up exactly what I thought she didn't want, and tried to avoid bringing over to her blog.

Kelly said...

Sallie, since you said that you happen to be reading Trail of Tears right now, maybe you could check to see if the citation is what Sean claims it to be.

Sallie feels that what I wrote here implies that she got the Cardinal's quote from Trail of Tears. I would like to publicly state that she specifically told me she did not get the quote from Trail of Tears, but from other, unspecified sources.

I suggested she check the citation in Trail of Tears because of the point Mr. Hyland made about two different quotes being attributed to the same page number. In case that was unclear to anyone else.

Erika S. said...

Sallie, Sallie, Sallie, Why are you so angry?

Sallie said...

not worth my time...

Tracy said...

Hey Kelly, I think you did a great job with this post and clearly pointed out simple facts and truth and if anyone can't deal with that, it just shows ignorance, you know the saying.. ignorance is bliss.. well, some people would rather live their lives that way than live in the truth, keep up the great work of defending our faith from people who refuse to do their "homework" and learn the real and true facts before making false statements. Blessings to you.

aine said...

Sallie seems to have been busy deleting her posts. Why am I not surprised? Interestingly enough, she has a post up on her blog where she boo-hoos being called a heretic and a bigot. Funny, I seem to remember her slinging the bigot word around in several of her comments to the ladies here. I posted a comment on her blog, but it's moderated now, let's see if she has the huevos to put it up.

I commented on her blog:
"Gee, Sallie, maybe you should post a link to the post where you were NOT called a bigot or a heretic, but where you accused Christian women of not respecting a copyright, being lazy and , oh yes, being two-faced. Honesty and all that.

Y'all come and read Visits To Candyland. Sallie just can't seem to stay away!"

Elena said...

not worth my time...

Well now I'm confused. It was worth your time to dig up the quote to use on your own blog. That gives the impression that it was worth your time to support the notion that Baptists date from the apostolic era. But when that's challenged it's not worth your time to defend it?

That is interesting!

Elena said...

All of the comments to this blog are sent to my e-mail so I have a record of everything from everybody - deleted or not.

Elena said...

I am completely 100% a follower of Jesus Christ



Except for that pesky little "thou shalt not bear false witness" thing eh Sallie?

Kelly said...

Sallie seems to have been busy deleting her posts.

Well, they certainly didn't portray her best side, did they?

She was also very, um, not nice in her e-mails to me. Fortunately, I'm pretty thick-skinned. I think that if you have to resort to name-calling, you are trying to distract someone from your lack of argument.

She says that she has the flu, so perhaps she's been posting with a high fever, and came to regret it when the Tylenol kicked in.

Tracy said...
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Kelly said...

but make statements about the Catholic Church, and false ones at that and then to not be an adult and admit that you were wrong when facts are presented to you

Just to be fair to Sallie, we weren't discussing Catholicism. I said that I didn't think there was any evidence to support the claim that Baptists have existed continuously (and secretly) from the apostolic age.

Which was why I didn't bring it here . . .

Annie C said...

OK, here we go. I have to Fisk this.

-----

I need a new t-shirt...one that says heretic on one side and bigot on the other..that should cover me all the way around.

I guess. If you like t-shirts. I prefer a nice blouse myself.

Let me be clear to those who might throw those names around, I am completely 100% a follower of Jesus Christ and I submit to the WORD OF GOD alone as scriptural authority.

Well, good for you. I'm glad you're happy with that. No reason why that makes you a heretic or a bigot

NOTHING THAT SAYS "100% faithful to the Magisterium (or the teaching authority) of the Catholic Church" is authoritative to me and my belief in Jesus Christ.

OK, good to know. You do not accept the Magisterium or the authority of the Catholic Church. Got it.

I do.

Does simply following the Word of God instead of the RCC make me a bigot?

No, but repeatedly telling me I'm going to hell because I do accept the authority of the Catholic church, belittling my religious beliefs or rites, insisting I'm too ignorant to read a Bible, calling me a liar when I say I don't worship Mary or the Saints, and so on, does.

No, you have not said any of that directly, at least not to my knowledge. But you and Candy and some of the other ladies keep insisting we worship Mary and the saints, never *ever* read the bible, follow some program like mindless drones in Mass, and keep calling the Eucharist a "cracker". In my book, that's the same thing.

I don't know but if it does then I gladly claim it and own it.

No, believing in Jesus Christ does not make you a bigot. Making snide, rude, belittling comments about other people's religious beliefs makes you a bigot. Then saying it's the "Christian" thing to do makes you a heretic, as far as I can tell.

I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ and what He has done for me...

Good for you, I'm not ashamed of what He has done for me either.

Now, back to regularly scheduled blogging...


And I'll get back to my Christmas ornaments. Have a good one. *s*

unknown anon said...

Not to be too picky, but those Baptist claims are falsehoods against the Church.

They are claiming that that particular theology is "true" and has been held continuously since Christ established His Church. And that is a lie.

Heresies have been around since some walked away from Him saying "how can this be true" in John 6.

Remember that the Word of God is NOT the Scriptures. The Word is Christ himself. Hold fast to that, and the lies will fall away.

Tracy said...

Your right it was not specifically about Catholics but her newest post takes a jab and I don't get the attacks against Catholics. I don't see you doing anything wrong but offering to correct a mistake she made.

Anyways, I read the posts on her site between she and yourself and was very impressed with your thoughtful and direct replies, you really know what your talking about... that is so refreshing.

Tracy said...

unknown anon, you said "Hold fast to that, and the lies will fall away" my Priest said just that when we were having a similar discussion.... that is so neat you would just say that!! And that is so True!

Kelly said...

Not to be too picky, but those Baptist claims are falsehoods against the Church.

I'm fine if you want to argue that. I just wanted to be clear that this *mess* didn't start because I was challenging Sallie on something she said about Catholicism.

In fact, just so I feel better, here is the link to original post on her blog:

http://www.angelfire.com/sc/
anderklan/blahblahblog/index.blog/
1296154/
being-a-baptist-ala-charles-spurgeon/

The end word is spurgeon.

I'm guess that it won't be there much longer, though.

unknown anon said...

Sorry, Kelly

I didn't mean for my post to sound as if I was challenging you. It was meant more as an exercise in logic for those attempting to figure out what was going on in the absence of the original (and some of the following comments).

Kelly said...

Oh, you're fine unknown anon. I'm just a little hypersensitive after being called a liar, and someone who excels at twisting words, after I feel I bent over backwards to make sure she was accurately portrayed.

I'll just refrain from posting anything more tonight, and wait until I have a good night's sleep before posting again. Always a good guideline when posting. :)

Tracy said...

Oh, I'm sorry as well Kelly, I read almost all of Sallie's blog the last two days and I've just drawn my own conclusions and they are mine alone and have nothing to do with anything you have said.

unknown anon said...

Kelly--

Hope the world is looking a little brighter this morning

Elena said...

Classic logical fallacy 101

Early Christians practiced immersion baptism.

Baptists practice immersion baptism.

Therefore, all Early Christians were Baptists!

Inductive reasoning fallacy:Inductive Argument
Premise 1: Most American cats are domestic house cats.
Premise 2: Bill is an American cat.

Conclusion: Bill is domestic house cat.

Kelly said...

Hope the world is looking a little brighter this morning

Much! All done thinking about Sallie now.

A reminder to me to follow my own rules about not posting after bedtime. Reading is fine, but posting is not. :)

unknown anon said...

Well, I am committed to thinking of her every day now. I added her to my (semi) permanent prayer list.

Oh, yes.....think I am holy, because all I can spit out is "bless those who persecute you.;"

Sallie said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tracy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kelly said...

Sallie, I have recently vowed to take a bigger role in moderating this blog. Accusations are best left to your own.

I am now asking that people not comment about the Sallie topic here anymore.

Comments directly related to the post (which does not mention Sallie by name) are allowed.

unknown anon said...
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unknown anon said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
unknown anon said...

Sorry, Kelly

I was writing my response as you were making your request.

I do as you have asked.

Sallie said...
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Sallie said...
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Elena said...

I don't post anonymously Sallie. Anything I posted on your blog I put here anyway. I don't do anonymous.

I've been gone a couple of hours. If you've been following my other blog you'll see I have some heavy duty disinfecting to do around her this evening.

Thanks Kelly for the administration.

I concur. Let's stick to the topic of the bishop's alleged comment, or why some Baptists want to rewrite history to be included in apostolic times. Those topics are interesting enough!

Tracy said...

Kelly, I have deleted my comments about the blogger who will remain nameless from this day forward. I still stand by these statements and feel that nameless is totally ignorant of the Catholic faith but then again, Anti Catholics are ignorant of the Catholic faith, they don't want to know the truth, that might make them no longer "anti Catholic" I respect you wanting to keep this on the up and up and am sorry if my emotions were running high, I am a christian but I am also a sinner and my emotions are human ones at that and I need to work on this, and God willing I will learn how to deal with comments that are hurtful and ignorant, with a more Christ like attitude.
Blessings

Kelly said...

Okay, nobody take the ruthless pruning personally, but I think you've had time to read each other's replies, and I don't want others tempted to start adding their two cents.

I've left the ones that I don't think invite much response, and I can verify that Sallie has said before that she thinks that Catholics can be saved, too.

Kelly said...

PS--Anyone else find it humorous that half of this comment thread is now deleted? I guess if Mr. Sean comes by, he won't have any idea what we were discussing. :)

Elena said...

If he comes by I would love to here how he did his research, and other information about this alleged quote.

I find it fascinating that some Baptists want to be dated to the apostles, but want nothing to do with apostolic succession

Elena said...

FYI, Sallie is going through the archives now and leaving comments here and there.

Tracy said...
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Tracy said...
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