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Friday, October 26, 2007

Followup on the Sean Hyland article.

I did receive a gracious e-mail from Mr. Hyland this morning and he gave permission to post it.

Dear Elena,

peace of Christ be with you always, dearest sister. Sallie emailed me and below is my reply to her. Feel free to post this reply on your blog.


God be with you and yours always.

Sean Hyland.

btw you of course were quite in order as regards the copyright!!! I made all my stuff public domain for the sake of the Kingdom.


---------------------------
Dear Sallie,

may the peace of Christ be with you always. I researched the letters of Cardinal Hosius in the diocesan library ("Dombibliothek") of Hildesheim, Germany. They are of course in Latin but there is no restriction on any lay person visiting the library requesting the tome and sitting down to study it.

God bless you, precious sister.

Sean Hyland.

31 comments:

Tracy said...

Oh, Elena, that is so neat that he replied and gave permission to use the work he has done to help others!

I have added his site to my second blog for easy access for those who want to know the truth.

Blessings!!

Elena said...

What I find interesting and might take to my other blog, is the idea now that if something is valid and real then it MUST be on the web, and we certainly should be able to link to it. I think that's the problem here. Mr. Hyland didn't linke to his source because his source is a book somewhere in Europe and it IS NOT ON LINE! That doesn't make it any less valid.

Wow, I can't imagine when I was in high school even having the internet, and now folks seem to think if it's not on the internet, it's not valid!

Elena said...

The other problem, is that of course, the implication that because the source isn't on line, then the author must be somehow deceptive or lying about it. Even our court system gives the defendant the benefit of being innocent until PROVEN guilty. I think in this case were Mr. Hyland has been so open about where he got his research and even provided the Latin I don't how there is room to doubt his integrity.

Granted, it would not be EASY to counter his research, but it's not impossible to examine what he did to either verify or counter.

aine said...

Thanks for posting Mr. Hyland's reply. Yes, very gracious and to the point.

Sallie said...

Ladies --

I spent the evening and morning reading the Bible and in prayer. I am sorry for any offense I have caused you.

There is a long history of each of our denominations. I do not believe everything that is said about yours. You will not believe everything that is said about mine. The truth is that Jesus Christ is the one and only way to receive salvation. I do hope we agree on that.

I never knew this blog existed until several of you came to my blog and emailed me. Not all of the things that were directed at me were nice or Christ-like and I went on the defensive. I allowed myself to sin by retaliating, especially yesterday. I have been sick, and though that is not any excuse worth giving, I was fed up and allowed my mouth to give over where I would normally not do that.

I know that there is nothing I could point to that would give you pause to think any other way than your own way. That is ok because we are all free to think how we wish.

Please forgive me for any offense I have given to you.

In Christ,
Sallie

Tracy said...

Sallie, forgiveness is yours and I ask forgiveness as well.

You are correct, we do have different religions, but we DO believe in the same God (Praise the Lord!)and if we agree in that, I bet that there are also many others things as well.

I think it takes a very good person and Christian to admit they have been wrong and I really admire that so much and I hope that you can forgive me for jumping to wrong conclusions and forgetting that the first step to witnessing our faith to others, is how we treat others, we need to treat others as God would ask us to and I admit, I haven't been treating you as God would want, and in that I am deeply sorry.

Blessings to you and yours!

Kelly said...

Mr. Hyland didn't linke to his source because his source is a book somewhere in Europe and it IS NOT ON LINE! That doesn't make it any less valid.

Wow, I can't imagine when I was in high school even having the internet, and now folks seem to think if it's not on the internet, it's not valid!


Isn't the internet an AMAZING resource, though? I grew up in a rural area, and there is no way I would be able to find classical works in the local library.

My first job involved a lot of downtime, and it had internet access. I spent a lot of my time reading through the fathers of the church--online! I was thrilled to have the access to that kind of writing, for free. I did have to pace myself, though, not to get headaches.

Elena said...

Thanks for that Sallie.

Elena said...

Kelly, I LOVE the internet. I was the kind of kid who could be happy for hours just going through the encyclopedia, so having this type of information at my fingertips is a real blessing!

Kelly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sallie said...

Kelly -- I did not call anyone that.. as I said it is an inside joke with my husband.

I did what God led me to do here. That is all I can do.

Elena said...

Now that you have Mr. Hyland's response and credentials, do you have any further thoughts Sallie on the quote in question?

Sallie said...

I know nothing more than I did to start with.

Elena said...

Well, I might be wrong, but did you know of Mr. Hyland's research BEFORE you posted the quote on your blog?

Were you aware that he was a gifted and experienced translator when Kelly presented you with his research?

Now that you know that Mr. Hyland is a well respected translator and that he looked at the actual book that was supposed to hold this quote and could not find it in any of the works, and in particular not onthe page or paragraph that was cited, does that give you any pause that perhaps the source that uses the quote might perhaps be in error?

Sallie said...

I should further explain that last sentence, I suppose.

Mr Hyland did indeed email me. However he did not include any credentials as to who he is.

I looked over the website and could not find anything regarding who he is other than his name and email.

I do not doubt that there is a Sean Hyland who writes for the encyclopedia but there are also Sean Hylands who write on car engines, etc.. My surprise that he might be the writer from the Catholic encyclopedia is that he would place it on a free website and not his own dot com. Surely, he would reach a wider audience with that avenue.

As I stated to Kelly that I did not get that quote out of the book she referred to but saw it in several books I see it this way: There are people who say it says "this" and there are people who says "it doesn't exist". I can know nothing more than that.

Sallie said...

Tracy -- I believe when someone asks forgiveness, it is important to acknowlege that, just as you did with me. I forgive you. My apology was sincere and I know yours was as well..

May God bless you!
Sallie

Elena said...

When I googled Sean + Hyland + Catholic, I came up with a number of articles translated by Sean Hyland. But for the sake of thoroughness I just e-mailed Mr. Hyland again and asked if he were one in the same. That should take care of that.

Commenting on the state of his web site is a "Poisoning the Well" fallacy. Whether information is posted on a paid site or on a free site does not change the validity or truthfulness of the information. As his web site comes up pretty fast when I did a number of searches, I don't think Paid or unpaid is an issue. (Style over substance once agagin) In fact, many successful unpaid blogs get a lot of hits.


There are people who say it says "this" and there are people who says "it doesn't exist".

Well the way I see it, the authority we cited (Mr. Hyland) is saying that the quote.
1. Does not exist in the complete works.

2. The quote does not exist in any of the letters of Cardinal Hosius and
3. As Mr. Hyland pointed out other sources give the reference
pages 112, 113 of "Apud Opera" for an entirely different quote!! How could the two quotes both exist in the same exact place at the same time.


Knowing all of this I think it would be reasonable to at least have some suspicion or doubt about the accuracy and existence of this quote. Perhaps it was another bishop, cardinal, or pope etc. who made the quote.

Although for the time table to fit it would have to be someone who was around during the same time as Hosius.

All that aside, I find it fascinating that some Baptists are taking the word of the member of the Catholic clergy as authoritative about the history of the Baptist church on this! Does anyone else find that ironic?

Sallie said...

Elena -- you have a catholic source that backs up what you say. I have baptist sources that back up what I say. We would both say both sides are biased...


As for the second quote having the same page numbers I saw it giving different pages...

There are quotes from Lutheran, Methodist, Calvinist, Catholic that say the same thing about Baptists. I think they were approached by the authors andor sources cited by researchers to try and give an unbiased view.

unknown anon said...

Pretty sentiments, Sallie.

Is there anything specific for which you have remorse, or is it just your "defensiveness" and "retaliating?"

In any case, I accept your statement of general apology. I hope you feel better about yourself now, and recognize the love shown you here for what it is...love from hearts that are pure and nonjudgemental.

And though you reject them, I still offer my prayers for you.

Sallie said...

WOW

Elena said...

Elena -- you have a catholic source that backs up what you say. I have baptist sources that back up what I say. We would both say both sides are biased...

Whoa... I never said that Mr. Hyland was not an unbiased source. What I said was that his research seemed to make a reasponable and logical argument against the existence of the Cardinal's quote. Mr. Hyland's approach isn't even an attack on the existence of apostolic Bishops, but more a researched piece on whether or not the quote as cited even exists.

Having viewed all of the cardinal's works and letters, AND having shown that other Baptist sources are using the same page and paragraph for another quote, it is reasonable to have some doubt about the aunthenticity of the quote regardless of Mr. Hyland's religious affilitation.

Further, if Mr. Hyland is a fraud, where is the reasoned and researched response to his work? Surely Baptists too have scholarly translators who would be up in arms enough to try to debunk this?

Interestingly though in my othe rpost of the day, even Baptists seem to disagree on the existence "apostolic" Baptists.

How many more red flags does it take?


As for the second quote having the same page numbers I saw it giving different pages...

Well you keep saying that you had other sources. I don't suppose you could supply them with link or title and author.

There are quotes from Lutheran, Methodist, Calvinist, Catholic that say the same thing about Baptists. I think they were approached by the authors andor sources cited by researchers to try and give an unbiased view.

There are quotes from Lutherans, Methoidst, Calvinist and Catholic that say the what about Baptists? That they existed during the apostolic times? Oh please do share!!

Sallie said...

No, I tried to apologize and I was cut down for it. That shows me that there is no true interest here.

unknown anon said...

Sorry, Sallie...

It is rather shocking to have your sincere offerings rejected publicly, though, isn't it? When your own words come back to haunt you?

I do pray that you are better today, and that you are on the mend from the illness that provoked you. And that you will have every rich blessing from God in your life, today and always.

Love is a decision, not a feeling. Let's ALL decide, even when we don't "feel."

Elena said...

No, I tried to apologize and I was cut down for it.

Actually I thanked you for it and am trying to move on and stay on the topic.

So... Sallie, what were your other sources that actually gave a different page number and source for the Cardinal's quote?

Erika S. said...

Everyone- Please stop being mean spirited to Sallie. I see her apology as sincere and well intentioned the least we could do is say apology excepted and DROP THE SUBJECT WITH REFERENCE TO SALLIE!
Unknown Anon- you seem very angry still and I think if you took a moment to think and pray you would not have been so sarcastic in your response to Sallie.
Please remember that we are all human and we all have feelings and GOD calls all of us to love our neighbor as ourselves please remember that. We are to do this even when we are anrgy, tired, sick, misunderstood, overwhelmed, whatever! I know that it is hard and because we are human we sometimes fail but please try to remember to be KIND!
Your Sister in Christ,
Erika

Kelly said...

Hyland cites a reference at the Landmark Independent Baptist Church website as another instance of the Bishop's quote. I tracked it down there to a book or booklet that is posted there.

The Bishop's quote is in the middle of a section of quotes from different religions that are supposed to support the apostolic Baptist theory.

http://users.aol.com/libcfl/witness5.htm

I don't know that this is the reference to which Sallie is referring, but this is probably a similar resource.

Elena said...

[11] Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius, Letters, APUD OPERA, pp. 112, 113. [Baptist

Magazine, CVII, p. 278 (May 1826)], quoted by Christian, op. cit. pp. 85, 86.

Quoted also by C. B. and Sylvester Hassell, HISTORY OF THE CHURCH OF GOD, (Middletown, NY, Gilbert Beebe's Sons, 1886), [reprinted by Old School Hymnal Co, Inc., Conley, GA., 1973], p. 504.


This is where I would start looking!

kritterc said...

I agree with Erika. This site has been so informative for me and a great blessing. That being said, I am having a hard time with the bickering. Let's accept Sallie's apology and move on.

Elena said...

In my home, we kiss, hug, and then do the dishes, or homework, or whatever task is at hand and we don't bring it up again.

That's what I was trying to do here.

Rule of thumb, I am always WAY more interested in discussing the topic du jour than rehashing who did what to who.


My other interest is good discussion. I think everyone needs to reread the commenting guidelines and try to stick with those. Let's start discussing like serious apologists and not like... girls!

I'd also like to share an anecdotal story. A couple of years ago I was debating with a liberal Catholic about whether or not the Catholic Church taught that we had a responsibility to indeed stop someone from sinning or speaking up when some one admitted to committing or planning to commit a sit. I was going through the catechism and not having any luck and she was pretty much gloating that I didn't have a leg to stand on.

Then I found it. I found the paragraph in the catechism that totally supported my position and I posted it.

What happened next will always stay with me. She didn't dodge the issue, she didn't try to wriggle her way out of it, she didn't find another strawman, and she didn't disappear for a month to let the issue just die a natural death.

Instead she wrote, "Damn. Touche girl."

She recognized her defeat and she acknowledged it. I really respected her for that.

Tracy said...

Wow Elena, that is amazing! Too bad more people couldn't be like that, but it is hard to hear the truth when your not ready. It is like my brother in law who is Presbyterian, we have given him many books on the Catholic faith and although he is very respectful and reads them (including Rome sweet home) he said, (I'm not searching, maybe if I was searching,) I think you have to be really open to the truth for it to take ahold of your life, so all we can do is show the facts and the truth and Pray that it will sink in, maybe today, maybe in a year, etc.
My own hubby is living proof, 14 yrs of marriage, 14 yrs of him being Lutheran and me being Catholic and he came to me and said ( I'm ready, I'm searching) he is now ( Praise The Lord) in the R.C.I.A. classes at our Parish... he LOVES it!! So, just keep doing what your doing... somebody will learn from this, maybe not right away, but.. it will slowly start to take shape in their minds... it did for my hubby. Blessings to you!

Elena said...

Mr Hyland did indeed email me. However he did not include any credentials as to who he is.

I looked over the website and could not find anything regarding who he is other than his name and email.

I do not doubt that there is a Sean Hyland who writes for the encyclopedia but there are also Sean Hylands who write on car engines, etc.. My surprise that he might be the writer from the Catholic encyclopedia is that he would place it on a free website and not his own dot com. Surely, he would reach a wider audience with that avenue.


Please see post of 10/27/2007. I did receive comfirmation from Sean that he is indeed the same Sean Hyland that transcribed for Catholic Encylopedia.