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Sunday, June 29, 2008

This High Stakes Game

From Candy's comments:

I am very curious about the prophesying you keep talking about. I was always taught that once the Old Testament ended that anything like this was of the devil. Can you share some scripture that this is from in the NT? --N.
----

Wow, N... There's more info on this in the NT, than in the OT.

A good place for you to start a study on this is to read 1 Corinthians, chapters 12-14.

Be careful. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is one's attributing the works and power of the Holy Spirit to the devil. --Candy


This is a reminder of why we do what we do here at Visits to Candyland. Candy says that the Catholic Church is satanic. We say it is the Church established by Jesus.

Be careful.


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19 comments:

Tracy said...

thank you for addressing this Kelly, I was hoping one of you would:)

aine said...

I read the comment, too, and wondered if she even sees what she has done with her own words. Great post, Kelly.

Rachel said...

Aine,

She even talks herself in circles! I thought it was a great questioned and wondered why she allowed it to go thru. Then I read the retort. I wish she would heed her own words. I tell ya, since reading all these blogs, Mass is that much more special to me :) I sure hope Candy considers all these things moving in her life may be from all the prayer for her from us (all those Catholics she despises to much!)

angie said...

My jaw really dropped when I read that post and some of the following comments. It's almost like she's playing a game of "Chicken" with her readers. Who will have the courage to challenge Candy? I am also continually amazed at how Candy comes off as thinking she is infallible in her interpretation of scripture. No one else can seem to interpret it "right," unless they are in agreement with her. This will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Sal said...

Ironically, my short answer to 'why did you become a Catholic?' is "Jesus told me to, in Matt 16."

This Holy Year might be an especially fruitful time to pray for all the uninformed anti-Catholics on the web.

Rachel and Aine,
I think she says so many things on so many subjects that it may be difficult to keep track of it all. Plus, since she deletes controversial posts, she can't refer to them.

Robin said...

Actually, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the denial that Jesus in the Christ and that God is God.

Many people confuse the work of Satan with that of God - because of their own human desire to do that particular task or have a particular situation occur. If something is truly of God, I found it is affirmed by several sources.

Perplexity said...

OK, I'm going back a few posts here to the discussion on "The Word of God forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue."

Maybe it is just me who cannot let it go, but I still have a hard time with that logic.

In her comments to her prophesy post, Candy says: " That's right Summer. The gift of speaking in tongues is the gift of one's suddenly being able to speak in a different language, of which they never learned."

So, when one suddenly knows how to speak in a different language, are they allowed to pray and teach in that language? What about those around them, who may not know the new language? Are they allowed to be taught in the suddenly gifted language?

There is, obviously, something needling me about the whole concept of that initial statement of not teaching or praying in an unknown language. The latest hit on it; I'm not sure I'm going the right direction with my questioning, but I can't let it go either.

Kelly said...

Matt 12:22-32:"Then there was brought to Him a demon-possessed man who was blind and dumb, and He healed him, so that the dumb man spoke and saw. 23And all the multitudes were amazed, and began to say, "This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?"

24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebub the ruler of the demons." 25And knowing their thoughts He said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself shall not stand. 26"And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? 27"And if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Consequently they shall be your judges.

28"But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29"Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come,"

My initial thought is to side with Candy that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is saying that a work of the Holy Spirit is a work of Satan.

Catholic Enclopedia has a good explanation of how that is the strict sense that St. Mark defined the sin, but that the fathers of the Church expanded on that meaning, until we get the most general meaning that is used in the Catholic Catechism:


CCC 1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

Robin wrote: Many people confuse the work of Satan with that of God - because of their own human desire to do that particular task or have a particular situation occur.

I strongly agree with what you wrote, and I enjoyed your contribution to the discussion. Thanks for stopping by!

Deeny said...

Candy's IFB readers will have a problem with her Biblical Interpretation of

1 Cor 8-13. (NAS- New American Standard)
8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.9For we know in part and we prophesy in part;10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Independent Fundamental Baptist (and most Southern and General Baptist Churches that I have been to) Interpret the "Perfect" that is to come as the Bible complete and infallible. Therefore since we have the Perfect Bible the "Sign" Gifts of the Holy Spirit Such as Tongues, Prophecy & Healings have ceased. (note: healings as someone laying on of hands and having the gift of healing such as Faith healers has ceased. They do believe miracles can and do still happen with prayer)
Petecostal/ Charismatic Churches interpret the "Perfect" that is to come as Jesus.

That is also my interpretation also, and although I haven't actually researched this yet (So please correct me if I'm wrong) that is I believe also the interpretation of the Catholic Church. I know there are Charismatic Catholic churches although I have never been to one. I know it is not forbidden or frowned upon although I know many parisheners that would never personally go to a Catholic charasmatic service.

But my point is: The Bible again is not perspicuous. Here you have two different Bible believing groups that interpret it differently.

It will be interesting to see what happens.
PS : As I said, I know there are Charismatic Catholic churches. We even discussed briefly in rCIA. Is there an official Church stance? Just curious. I would like to investigate this a bit further since I haven't yet done so.

Sincerely Deeny

Robin said...

Thanks for letting me contribute, Kelly!

Deeny said...

PS: Candy read Dave Hunts" Whore of Babylon" book (which I haven't read) But Dave Hunt wrote another book called "The Seduction of Christianity" which I read back in the '80's. Anyway in that book he rails against the Charismatics and Pentecostals. He believes the "Sign "gifts of the Spirit died out with the Apostles and have ceased.

Kelly said...

Deeny, I don't know much about the Catholic charismatic renewal, myself. I do know that it has the blessing of the church, and I have met devout Catholic both in favor of it, and those who felt it was demonic.

I found this in a This Rock magazine:

Q: Some people in my Church are part of the Charismatic Renewal and are very enthusiastic about it, telling me that I should join it and experience all of the many miracles and visions that they have. I am confused about what to do.

A: On the subject of the Charismatic Renewal, people tend to go to one of two excesses-either embracing every reported claim of charismatic phenomena without discernment, or else dismissing all charismatic phenomena entirely.

Supernatural gifts have always been given to the Church; but, throughout Christian history, such gifts have at times been counterfeited and reported as real: either the person believed he had a gift when he did not, or he was lying for some reason (such as to gain attention or money), or the manifestation was supernatural but had a diabolical source.

In evaluating reports of charismatic phenomena, one of the most important Bible passages is 1Thessalonians 5:19-22: "Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophesying, but test everything; hold fast what is good, abstain from every form of evil."

This strikes the balance between credulity and incredulity-the willingness to believe anything and the willingness to believe nothing.

Concerning such gifts, Vatican II stated: "Whether these charisms be very remarkable or more simple and widely diffused, they are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation since they are fitting and useful for the needs of the Church. Extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly desired, nor is it from them that the fruits of apostolic labors are to be presumptuously expected" (Lumen Gentium 12).

Kelly said...

So, when one suddenly knows how to speak in a different language, are they allowed to pray and teach in that language? What about those around them, who may not know the new language? Are they allowed to be taught in the suddenly gifted language?

perplexity, I have no idea how Candy would answer your question.

However, my New Testament professor (sort of a born-again Presbyterian) read the Corinthians verses to say that someone would speak in a foreign (not unknown) language, and if that gift would given, then someone would also be given the gift of translation at the same time. So one would prophesy, and another would be right there translating.

Obviously, that's just his interpretation, but it is one explanation for that line of reasoning.

Saved Sinner said...

I'm fairly sure that CCC definition is what I've been taught too.

Deeny said...

Kelly I like your posting of the Rock article and vatican Explanation

"Concerning such gifts, Vatican II stated: "Whether these charisms be very remarkable or more simple and widely diffused, they are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation since they are fitting and useful for the needs of the Church. Extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly desired, nor is it from them that the fruits of apostolic labors are to be presumptuously expected" (Lumen Gentium 12)."

That is a nice balance and pretty much where i am at anyway with my thinking too. thanks, Deeny

Cajunchic said...

I am N and I believe she only allowed that comment so that she could "put me in my place". I feel that her answer talked in circles and just took time to insult me by saying that I needed to read the bible rather than relying on others to give me answers. I am IFB but I do not believe the way she does. Please know that not all IFB believers are like that. Thank you for taking the time to comment on this.

Kelly said...

Thanks for stopping by, cajunchic!

I really do try not to make general assumptions about Baptists, and especially IFB's. That's what being Independent is about! I've found that doctrine really varies by church, or pastor I guess, so it is difficult assume that they all interpret Scripture the same way.

I also try not to refer to Candy as Baptist, because I know she has said several times that she doesn't agree with everything at her church. She certainly seems more pentecostal, these last few posts.

Kelly said...

1 Corinthians chapter 14 gets into the specifics of speaking in tongues and prophesying, and how to do it while keeping order in the church. Chapter 14 concludes that one should only speak out loud in tongues if there is someone there to interpret. And if there is more than one person with a prophecy to say aloud, then they are to take turns, and not all speak out at once.

This is from her latest entry. Bingo, perplexity! I guess she agrees with my professor.

Perplexity said...

Ahh...the answer from both you, Kelly, and Candy - and your professor - make sense, for my latest question.

There is still something niggling my brin about the whole unknown language thing though. But, I have a feeling that if I keep reading, here, there and other sites, whatever it is will either get answered without me knowing exactly what the questions are or there will be a bingo! or light bulb moment for me.

Thanks for responding.