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Tuesday, October 21, 2008

The Eighth Beast

Edited to add:

Milehimama has corrected me, pointing out that St. John Lateran is actually the official cathedral of the Pope. Well, I did say "most would consider," but hey, everyone is wrong sometime and I have no problems admitting it!

I guess Candy decided not to let the Homeschool Blog Awards keep her silent. Most of the conclusions she draws in her latest article seem to be quite a stretch to me, but you know . . .

Here is my half-effort at the Catholic bit:

Russia has laid out the introduction. They have made the way open for the Pope to step in and be the ecumenical, council of religions "hero."

Russia proposes council of religions to support AoC

If Javier Solana is the anti-Christ, how can the Pope be the anti-Christ? Or is he just the head of the Whore of Babylon? The Vatican is already a member of the UN, so I'm not sure this council of religions makes any great difference.

And, of course, the Pope needs to get in on the action, because the Roman Catholic ecumenical church will likely be the head of the whore:

"The Pope's leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

'We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your [Mary's] heart,' the text of the prayer reads.

What exactly does the Pope saying this prayer in Italy have to do with anything? I'm really not following her here. But here is where you can read our articles on why the Catholic Church is not the Whore of Babylon.


With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: 'If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.'"

Well, here's a suggestion - instead of turning to a DEAD human, why not turn to GOD???

Here is an article about Mary, and another on prayers to and for the dead.

Pontiff puts world in Mary’s hands

What about the Pope's cathedral? It is St. John Lateran Cathedral.

Actually, most people would say that the Pope's cathedral is St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. You know, the Vatican?

There is a curious Latin inscription on the columns, which says:

"SACROS(ANCTA) LATERAN(ENSIS) ECCLES(IA)
OMNIUM URBIS ET ORBIS
ECCLESIARUM MATER
ET CAPUT."

Translation in English = "Sacred Lateran Church, Universally for the City and the World, Supreme Mother of Churches", or "Holy Lateran Church, Mother and Head of all Churches in the City and the World"

St. John Lateran is the "Mother of all Churches" because it was the first major basilica in Rome.

This immediately brings to mind the below Scripture:

"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." -Revelation 17:5

I guess I'm missing it because I'm Catholic, but I don't see that either of these sentences has much in common besides the word Mother. Especially since, as I already explained, most would consider the "head of all churches of Rome" to be St. Peter's, and not St. John's.

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34 comments:

Tracy said...

Are we back at this again? Hasn't she covered this before??

NancyP said...

Well, at least it gives potential voters the chance to see what her blog is really all about.

Elena said...

Bravo to you Kelly for wading through that post!

Kelly said...

Oh, I skipped most of the rest of it.

I have to say, I think she would have been better off just linking to her Whore of Babylon essay. She was just jumping from topic to topic here, and I didn't see any coherent point. Not her strongest piece of writing.

And the Pope's church being St. John Lateran? That's like saying the Queen of England doesn't live in Buckingham palace. I thought St. Peter's was the most famous church in the world. It's at least the largest.

Milehimama said...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09014b.htm

Milehimama said...

I posted a comment, but Blogger ate it!

St. John Lateran is the official church and seat of the Bishop of Rome, i.e., the Pope.

That is what the link is for. :)

Kelly said...

I stand corrected, and added a note to the article.

I guess I shouldn't have been in such a rush to take a nap. I did skim that article before I posted, but I just saw the part where it said it was the former residence of the Pope.

Kelly said...

Oops, now Candy is spreading my mistake around.

Sure, the one time she doesn't just delete an e-mail from me . . .

Milehimama said...

I'm cross posting from CIAL some comments I made that may interest VTC readers.


What Candy says the inscription on the column is:
"SACROS(ANCTA) LATERAN(ENSIS) ECCLES(IA)
OMNIUM URBIS ET ORBIS
ECCLESIARUM MATER
ET CAPUT.

Actual inscription, without odd parantheticals"
Sacrosancta Lateranensis ecclesia omnium urbis et orbis ecclesiarum mater et caput


Rev. 17:5
Mysterium: Babylon magna, mater fornicationum, et abominationum terræ.

They do share the word Mater. And "et". I'm not really seeing the connection though.

Milehimama said...

Basic Catholic interpretation of the 7 kingdoms, then 8th kingdom (it's not an 8th BEAST, Candy didn't read the verses carefully), is that it has already occurred.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The seven heads of the beast are seven emperors. Five of them the Seer says are fallen. They are Augustus Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The year of Nero's death is A.D. 68. The Seer goes on to say "One is", namely Vespasian, A.D. 70-79. He is the sixth emperor. The seventh, we are told by the Seer, "is not yet come. But when he comes his reign will be short". Titus is meant, who reigned but two years (79-81). The eighth emperor is Domitian (81-96). Of him the Seer has something very peculiar to say. He is identified with the beast. He is described as the one that "was and is not and shall come up out of the bottomless pit" (17:8). In verse 11 it is added: "And the beast which was and is not: the same also is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into destruction".

All this sounds like oracular language. But the clue to its solution is furnished by a popular belief largely spread at the time. The death of Nero had been witnessed by few. Chiefly in the East a notion had taken hold of the mind of the people that Nero was still alive. Gentiles, Jews, and Christians were under the illusion that he was hiding himself, and as was commonly thought, he had gone over to the Parthians, the most troublesome foes of the empire. From there they expected him to return at the head of a mighty army to avenge himself on his enemies. The existence of this fanciful belief is a well-attested historic fact. Tacitus speaks of it: "Achaia atque Asia falso exterrit velut Nero adventaret, vario super ejus exitu rumore eoque pluribus vivere eum fingentibus credentibusque" (Hist., II, 8). So also Dio Chrysostomus: kai nyn (about A.D. 100) eti pantes epithymousi zen oi de pleistoi kai oiontai (Orat., 21, 10; cf. Suetonius, "Vit. Caes."; s.v. NERO and the SIBYLINE ORACLES). Thus the contemporaries of the Seer believed Nero to be alive and expected his return. The Seer either shared their belief or utilized it for his own purpose.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/...then/ 01594b.htm

It is also a pretty commonly held belief that the number of the beast, 666, refers to Nero.

Clare said...

I've just seen the addendum Candy has added to her post with Kellys 'correction'. How funny! I'm intrigued that she didn't add anything but just let it stand alone there. Unless readers read here, or at CIAL, they will probably just take the correction at face value I would have thought.
Who doesn't think it's St Peters? ( apart from you Mielhi McSmartypants!)
And if they do read here, well great, they can learn something.

Jennie said...

O.K. Ladies, I know the whole point of this blog is to counteract Candy's alleged misrepresentations or mistakes about catholicism, but you are all so busy picking at the details of her post that you are not seeing the main point, which is: The one world government and the one world church prophesied in Revelation and Daniel, etc. are arising before our eyes. WHICH SIDE ARE YOU GOING TO BE ON? The side that bows down to the beast from the sea (Rev. 13), or will you be among those who refuse and are martyred for the sake of Jesus Christ?
Candy's point is that there will be a false church and, as I think both John and Paul said in their epistles, that spirit was already arising even in their time. It has taken many forms over time, and has always persecuted the true church.
The false church has now permeated every religious group, and will soon become a one-world religion that persecutes all who dissent.
If you are looking for any other christ than the one Messiah who is Jesus Christ, then you are ready to be deceived when the false messiah appears.
It looks to me like every Christian group has become mainly apostate, with only a few faithful believers left in each group, so as I said before in other posts, we all need to examine ourselves according to God's word to see if we are really in the true faith, or we will be given over to 'a strong delusion' as Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12--(11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.)
If you really believe that your Church and your leaders are immune to apostasy then you are already deceived. Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 in the same passage I already quoted from: Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. MY POINT BEING:
PAUL SAID THERE WILL BE A FALLING AWAY OF THE CHURCH FIRST, BEFORE THE MAN OF SIN APPEARS. The church will become apostate with only a few faithful left. That is what is happening now. (It has happened before in history, and prophesies often repeat themselves, until the end when the final version of the beast appears)

Whether you believe or not that the catholic church has ever before played the role of antichrist or 'whore of babylon', it WILL play a role in it at the end along with all other church groups and religions. Don't be one of the ones who are deceived and blindly follow their leaders to worship the false christ.
The Jesus who died on the cross and rose again is the only Messiah, and He will return in the sky with angels and saints (Rev. 19), not on earth as a political or religious leader.
Jennie

Milehimama said...

The one world government and the one world church prophesied in Revelation and Daniel, etc. are arising before our eyes. WHICH SIDE ARE YOU GOING TO BE ON?

Catholics do not believe in the Rapture which is a novel doctrine introduced long after the Protestant Reformation. (That is, the "saints" will be caught up in the clouds, disappearing bodily from the earth, while all of the other people are left to muddle through a great Tribulation for some more years before Christ's Second Coming).

Jennie said,
It looks to me like every Christian group has become mainly apostate, with only a few faithful believers left in each group,

Catholics do not believe there is an "invisible church" of "true believers." We believe that the Church is the Bride of Christ, a visible institution, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

The church has always had sinners and saints, good and bad, tares and wheat. We know that at the end of the world, God will sort it out.
(Matt 13:24-30, Matt 25:31-46)

I would be interested in knowing what you consider apostasy, by what authority YOU judge a church's doctrines to be orthodox or apostate, and your sources for declaring most believers in most churches are not "true believers".

How does the Church of Jennie define a true believer, anyway?

Jennie said...

milehimama,
I didn't mention the rapture in my post. The more you study the Bible on its own, and prophecy specifically, the more you will see that there is a time of trial and then wrath at the end of this age. The Bible definitely mentions what we call the rapture, but it doesn't use that word; it says we will be 'caught up' with Him in the air at His coming:

1 Thessalonians 4:
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Some people believe the rapture will happen before the 'tribulation' period but I don't believe the Bible teaches that.
Scripture seems to be warning us that we will see the rise of the beast (a government and a ruler of that government) and that the saints will be persecuted by the beast. I know the pre-tribulation rapture idea is fairly recent and it isn't supported by scripture.
However this passage directly says that we who are alive and remain at His coming will be caught up with Him in the air after the dead in Christ rise first. There is disagreement on when this happens. If your church isn't teaching this passage and others about the end times, it isn't teaching the whole truth and you will be caught unaware when prophecy is fulfilled.

Jesus said in Matthew:
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 SEE, I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFOREHAND. 26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

I emphasized that one phrase because Jesus and the Apostles, and the prophets before them, all emphasized paying attention to prophecy, so that we can be comforted and encouraged during the hard times that come, knowing that He is there before us and with us and so we are warned not to be deceived by false christs and false prophets.

Please don't sarcastically call me 'the church of Jennie.' I don't claim to be a law unto myself; I attend a local church taught by Godly men who love Christ and His word. I read the Bible and the Holy Spirit helps me to understand it, as He promised: But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
John 14:26

Also:
7 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
1 John 2:27


Apostate means a person or group has departed from the truth of God's word and is teaching or believing a false gospel. If a church is teaching things contrary to God's word and does not repent when they become aware of it, then they can be considered in danger of apostasy: 1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons

Also: Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Milehimama said...

Jennie,
However this passage directly says that we who are alive and remain at His coming will be caught up with Him in the air after the dead in Christ rise first.

Catholics do believe this will happen at the end of the world. I was trying to make a distinction from the "rapture theology" that is so prevalent in non-Catholic Christian end-times theology. I apologize for jumping to a conclusion.

I used the term "church of Jennie" because it seemed that you were relying on your own authority and intrepretation of verses. I was not being sarcastic. I apologize if this is not the case and you do, in fact, subscribe to a Christian denomination's beliefs and put yourself under their authority.

Apostate means a person or group has departed from the truth of God's word and is teaching or believing a false gospel. If a church is teaching things contrary to God's word and does not repent when they become aware of it, then they can be considered in danger of apostasy

My question was more, who decides what is a false gospel? Some Protestant churches perform pedobaptism - is that a false gospel? If an Anglican prays a rosary, is that a false gospel? If a body of believers rejects their bishop with Apostolic authority, or a body of believers does not have bishops, is that a false gospel? Who determines, and by what authority?

All denominations cannot contain the fullness of the truth; how do you know which ones do not? An IFB would claim that Methodists were apostates; Episcopalians would claim that the Mennonites are mistaken; SBC would say that the Quakers don't worship properly.

You say that there are only a few faithful Christians in each Christian group... which groups are Christians? And how do you know whether people are true believers, or not?

Kelly said...

If your church isn't teaching this passage and others about the end times, it isn't teaching the whole truth and you will be caught unaware when prophecy is fulfilled.

As Milehi said, our church does teach this. Here is the doctrine on end times:

ARTICLE 7
"FROM THENCE HE WILL COME AGAIN TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD"

I. HE WILL COME AGAIN IN GLORY

Christ already reigns through the Church. . .

668 "Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."549 Christ's Ascension into heaven signifies his participation, in his humanity, in God's power and authority. Jesus Christ is Lord: he possesses all power in heaven and on earth. He is "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion", for the Father "has put all things under his feet."550 Christ is Lord of the cosmos and of history. In him human history and indeed all creation are "set forth" and transcendently fulfilled.551

669 As Lord, Christ is also head of the Church, which is his Body.552 Taken up to heaven and glorified after he had thus fully accomplished his mission, Christ dwells on earth in his Church. The redemption is the source of the authority that Christ, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, exercises over the Church. "The kingdom of Christ [is] already present in mystery", "on earth, the seed and the beginning of the kingdom".553

670 Since the Ascension God's plan has entered into its fulfillment. We are already at "the last hour".554 "Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way; it is even now anticipated in a certain real way, for the Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real but imperfect."555 Christ's kingdom already manifests its presence through the miraculous signs that attend its proclamation by the Church.556

. . .until all things are subjected to him

671 Though already present in his Church, Christ's reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled "with power and great glory" by the King's return to earth.557 This reign is still under attack by the evil powers, even though they have been defeated definitively by Christ's Passover.557 Until everything is subject to him, "until there be realized new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim Church, in her sacraments and institutions, which belong to this present age, carries the mark of this world which will pass, and she herself takes her place among the creatures which groan and travail yet and await the revelation of the sons of God."559 That is why Christians pray, above all in the Eucharist, to hasten Christ's return by saying to him:560 Marana tha! "Our Lord, come!"561

672 Before his Ascension Christ affirmed that the hour had not yet come for the glorious establishment of the messianic kingdom awaited by Israel562 which, according to the prophets, was to bring all men the definitive order of justice, love and peace.563 According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by "distress" and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church564 and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching.565

The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel

673 Since the Ascension Christ's coming in glory has been imminent,566 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."567. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are "delayed".568

674 The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus.569 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."570 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"571 The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles",572 will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".573

The Church's ultimate trial

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

* II. TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD

678 Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgment of the Last Day in his preaching.582 Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light.583 Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God's grace as nothing be condemned.584 Our attitude to our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love.585 On the Last Day Jesus will say: "Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."586

679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He "acquired" this right by his cross. The Father has given "all judgment to the Son".587 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.588 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.589

Jennie said...

milehimama,
Thank you for the apology.

You asked who decides what is a false gospel and how we know who is a true believer or which groups are real Christians. I'm not sure I can do justice to this question, but I'll give my thoughts and some verses to think about.

First of all, we are each responsible to read the scriptures and compare any teachings to them to see if the teachings are right. We are not to blindly follow any leader or group, but to compare everything to scripture.
See 2 Timothy 3:14-17
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

So, we must test the spirits to seee if they are of God, by whether they sincerely confess Jesus Christ as savior and follow the teachings of the Apostles which are given in Scripture. It doesn't take too long to tell if a church is following Scripture; and we can tell also by the fruit of peoples lives if they are saved. Also our mutual love for Christ causes us to love each other. (Of course no church or person is perfect and we are told also to exhort each other to help each other grow in good works)

Second, we need to continue to assemble together with other believers to help us remain faeithful and be taught and encouraged, which I also alluded to above.

This is getting long and i can't think straight anymore so I'll end here and hope to say more tomorrow.


Kelly, I read your post, and would like to comment on it later.
Thanks,
Jennie

Jennie said...

Milehimama,
I don't want to take any more time on the issue of how we can know which groups are Christians except to say that if you are truly converted to Christ, you have the Holy Spirit to guide you, convict you, and teach you as you read the Word and pray. Of course we are admonished to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together to worship and hear God's word preached and to remember Christ's death in the Lord's Supper, as we call it.


I don't want to lose sight of the original post and my point in commenting on it.

I was trying to say that if you are truly a Christian you should be looking for Christ's return and your church should be actively teaching prophecy (and the rest of scripture) to the assembly so they will know what to look for and be warned of error.

Kelly, just because you can find all those things you quoted from (where are those from, by the way) that seem accurate according to scripture (except I wasn't sure what it meant when it mentioned 'The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism' Does this mean you don't believe in the millenial reign of Christ?) this
doesn't excuse the fact that it isn't actively taught to everyone and also
more importantly the signs of the times are not being taught, including the prophecies of how to recognize the coming one world church and government and the great deception that is coming on the whole world. These things are taught in Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel and the other prophecy books as well as the gospels.

I also hate that the baptists and other evangelicals teach the insipid pretribulation rapture idea, when they teach it at all. So for the most part Christians seem to have fallen asleep and aren't watching, just when He is about to return.

I still believe that the Catholic chuch has long ago departed from the pure truth and while some can find the truth mixed in with all the error (if you want to know what the errors are supposed to be just google it and smarter people than I have already stated these things) I think most never hear the pure undiluted Word of God, and that this is even more the case in third world countries and ethnic communities than in the West.


I have question to ask about apparitions of Mary. I am curious to know what you as Catholicss think of this, and of what the pope did and said at Pompeii recently: giving an offering of a golden rose to the statue of Mary and repeating a prayer: "We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,"
With the words of Bartolo Longo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

I assume the pope agrees with this prayer or he would not have repeated it. In that case why does he not know to turn to God and his savior Jesus Christ the only mediator between God and men?

Also the things the apparitions are quoted as saying are blasphemous, such as the Fatima
apparition that told the children that people should be willing to suffer to pay for the sins of the world, and that devotion to her immaculate heart would be the way to God. This is blasphemy: Jesus is the only way to God according to the Bible.
Other apparitions have said similar things. These things are leading many astray because of their devotion to Mary.

What do you think?

Kelly said...

I think it's kind of funny that this topic came up when it did. My children and I usually attend Mass on Tuesday. The priest mentioned in his homily that just as we anticipate a visit from a friend, so we should anticipate the return of Jesus.

In our schoolwork, after we returned home, I mentioned that, and told the children that during Mass we alway remember Jesus' sacrifice, but also look forward to His return. My two older children are only 7 and 5, but they immediately quoted from several parts of Mass that look to the return of Jesus.

Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again.

. . . as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our savior, Jesus Christ.

. . . we proclaim your death, Lord Jesus, until you come in glory.

. . . where He is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

We are approaching the season of Advent, which anticipates the birth of Jesus. This is also a time when we put a special emphasis on Jesus returning, and many of our Scripture readings at Mass will be ones which relate to the return of Jesus.

The section I quoted in my previous comment was from the Catholic catechism, our statement of faith. The numbers included direct you to the correct paragraph.

I guess I'm not seeing quite the importance that you are placing on this one world government and prophesy.

Does Scripture say that we will be judged according to whether or not we correctly named the day and hour of Jesus' return? Is becoming a Christian out of fear that the end of the world is near really a valid conversion? Our faith shouldn't be changed by knowing Jesus will return tomorrow.

I can write about Marian apparitions later, but now I need to get lunch for the children.

Jennie said...

Here is a link to a video by Roger Oakland of Understand the Times about Fatima. He has a series of videos on Fatima and other subjects if you want to watch them to see what I am talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI6KGIz_swA

Jennie said...

Kelly,
the importance of knowing about the one world govt. and religion is that the prophecies are part of scriptures and we are told to watch and pray and study so we are ready to recognize the deceptions when they come and to be encouraged knowing He is about to appear and we can endure the trials. This was a command and warning of Christ and the Apostles.

Elena said...

I'm just going to do a brief drive by here because this is one topic that I have almost 0 interest in...

However, Jesus said we would not know the time or the hour. That's good enough for me. I study and practice the truth faith as handed down by the apostles, I study the scriptures as preserved by the Holy Catholic Church and the rest I just hand over to God.

Jennie said...

Kelly, you said:

"Does Scripture say that we will be judged according to whether or not we correctly named the day and hour of Jesus' return? Is becoming a Christian out of fear that the end of the world is near really a valid conversion? Our faith shouldn't be changed by knowing Jesus will return tomorrow."

It has nothing to do with naming the date and hour, which we can't know; but why did Jesus and the Apostles give all these warnings and prophecies if we are not to watch for them?
Fear may not bring a valid conversion by itself but it may lead someone to search the scriptures and go to church and find the truth and be saved.
Our faith CAN be strengthened as we see the prophecies coming true before our eyes.

I'm interested to read what you and others think about the apparitions issue.

Jennie said...

Elena,
the main problem with not being interested in prophecy is that one thing that is prophesied is apostasy, and that can include our church leaders, and any of us if we don't take care.
If our church leaders that we respect and follow turn from the truth, and then lead others away to worship antichrist then we must be sure we are not among them. There is a real danger there.
What if Franklin Graham gets up and tells people to follow antichrist? What if the pope does?
Thats what I see as one real danger. Many famous evangelical leaders have begun teaching the heresy of contemplative prayer as taught by Buddhists, hindus and also medieval mystics. This does not mean contemplating scripture but using transendental meditation practices to empty the mind and supposedly meet God or other beings. This is demonic heresy.
Ravi Zacharias, David Jeremiah, Beth Moore, Chuck Swindoll, and some others all endorse this now. We shouldn't follow famous men and women but look to scripture and be sure our local church is scriptural.

Kelly said...

I have a new post up about apparitions now, but the toddler just locked my 5 year old out in the backyard, so I really must be done for now.

Elena said...

What if the pope does?


The Pope can't. To be binding on Catholics anything the Pope says has to be in union with the magesterium, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. He can't just go making stuff up. It's the checks and balances of Catholicism!

mayfly28 said...

Does this mean you don't believe in the millenial reign of Christ?

The amillennial view is seen by Catholics as the most consistent with Scripture. That is, that we are IN Christ's kingdom right now (1000 used in a symbolic sense, see Psalm 50:9-11, 1 Chronicles 16:14-16, Exodus 20:5-7, 2 Peter 3:7-9)

There is no definitive dogma on millennial beliefs that I am aware of.

we can tell also by the fruit of peoples lives if they are saved...
how we can know which groups are Christians except to say that if you are truly converted to Christ, you have the Holy Spirit to guide you, convict you, and teach you as you read the Word and pray.


The Spirit is a spirit of Truth, not division. How can the Holy Spirit lead so many into so many different directions and interpretations?

Milehimama said...

Oops. Mayfly28 was me, under one of the kids' logins!

Milehimama said...

Hi Ladies,
Thought you might be interested in this graph of heresies held by the leaders of the four great Christian churches (Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople).
http://www.earlychurchfathers.org/fullcircle/static.php?page=static070723-132136


It's an easy to see graphic representation of how the Bishop of Rome has been protected from heresy.

Kelly said...

That's really neat, Milehi! Although it seems not everyone considers Nestorianism a heresy anymore.

Jennie said...

Milehimama,
Are there not any more heresies than are listed on that chart of the church leaders? Perhaps many would include RC in the Roman column.

I hope, Kelly, you are not calling me a Nestorian. You can't seriously think I believe Christ as God is separate from Jesus the man. Just because 'protestants' and baptists don't call Mary 'the mother of God' doesn't mean we think as the Nestorians believed.

It is something of a mystery that Mary can be Christ's mother, but not the mother of God. She's only human, and gave birth to the Son of God at one time in history. But she is only human and has no power or existence before her birth or outside of the normal human experience.
Calling her the mother of God and mediatrix elevates her to goddess status in people's minds, whether you admit it or not; your denials are only empty words; many catholics revere her as people of old revered their pagan goddesses. Giving offerings and praying to someone should be reserved only for God.
Jeremiah writes: 16 “Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you. 17 Do you not see what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger. 19 Do they provoke Me to anger?” says the LORD. “Do they not provoke themselves, to the shame of their own faces?”

I know you've seen the above before, and consider it an insult, but do you consider it nothing to insult God and provoke Him by placing this woman in between yourself and Him when He made His Son the only mediator? You have no right to pray to her and 'ask her to pray for you' when Jesus sits at the right hand of God mediating for you; you have no right to give her any place or title not given by God in His word which is preserved by Him for us.
Can you honestly say that carrying around a statue of someone on festival days, giving special offerings to her, singing praises to her and praying to her is NOT worship that ought to be given only to God? http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/May2006/traditions.asp

If you don't really know Christ then I can understand you might feel the need to look to someone else to protect you from His anger, but not if you know His mercy and grace.

Mary is not a perpetual virgin, which is refuted by one passage which says: Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS. Matthew 1:24-25
She was Joseph's wife, but out of obedience to God who told Joseph she would give birth to God's son fulfilling the prophecy that the Messiah would be born of a virgin, Joseph did not 'know her' until sometime after Jesus was born. The Bible says 'until' not 'never.' If she was to be a perpetual virgin, why make her a wife?

Jennie said...

I copied and pasted part of the last comment under the Marian Apparitions post with additional comments.

Kelly said...

I hope, Kelly, you are not calling me a Nestorian.

I try not to presume anyone's theological beliefs until they mention them. I was making a reference to a discussion Elena and I had with Candy and Amanda (Much Forgiven) on Nestorianism relatively recently.

It was before you started posting on the blog, so I can see why you would think I might have meant you. Milehi probably knew to whom I was referring.

Interestingly, Candy is the only person I've run across who doesn't feel that Mary was Jesus' biological mother. She made a comment, which she then deleted, saying that God put an already fertilized egg into Mary's womb, so He is not of her flesh.

Jennie said...

Kelly,
Thanks for clarifying that.

I didn't see Candy's post on Mary about the already fertilized egg. Or was it posted on your site, not hers?
It sounds like she's trying to rationalize someting that can't be explained: how Jesus could be fully God and still be born of a woman. It's not necessary for us to understand this. But it does boggle the mind and I can imagine some people can't stand not understanding!
Just so you know, I do agree on some things Candy posts about Catholics, at least some of the things I've read. I don't usually read or watch her catholic posts because, basically, I've seen most of it long before and gradually realized that the more sensational things are not at all helpful if you want to talk to Catholics.