Sunday, August 23, 2009

Jennie says:

Evelyn, I believe that you were already a believer before you entered the RCC. I also believe that you have been deceived into accepting the teachings of the RCC by another spirit that is not of Him, which puts you in dange

This is the kind of rhetoric that just makes me want to quit apologetics altogether. Oh the arrogance. And as someone who just watched her Catholic-convert of a mother suffer and die, I find it highly insulting.

I am no longer interested in ecumenism. Catholicism is the truth. It is what it is. and my current feeling is take it or leave it - we'll miss you.

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Moonshadow said...

I am no longer interested in ecumenism.

Well, that's good because you haven't an ecumenical bone in your body. You may take that as a compliment. :-)

But it isn't necessary to deny that Catholicism is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in order to engage in ecumenism. It's just a recognition that truth may be found outside Catholicism.

And Jennie's "mother of many harlots" model or Ratzinger's Dominus Iesus teaching really amount to the same thing: Protestants derive their blessedness from Catholicism. It is better to be a member of a Protestant church than a free agent.

just evelyn said...

I have an unrelated question for those of you who are more experienced at this. I have two gmail IDs. One is my pseudonym for comboxes, etc. I like to keep my "real" mail and reader windows open all day. But then comboxes try to make me use my real name, and when I sign back out, I get kicked out of mail and reader for the privilege of using a pseudonym in the combox. I don't want to use the anonymous comment option, because it isn't always available, and I go like to have followup comments emailed to me (auto forwarded from the pseudo ID to my real email).

Is there a way to be two people at once, or am I just stuck with the inconvenience for now?

Elena said...

But I do have an ecumenical bone or two!! I LOVED my BFF's Holy Roller Gospel type church- the music and the enthusiasm. I love my church of the Brethren relatives and I recognize their love of God. I am totally willing to live and let let live and answer questions about my Catholic faith if they ask.

But I'll defend my faith!

I just don't think there's much point in hoping that logic and reason will will help people like Candy and Jennie understand it.

Elena said...

I have no clue Evelyn. I'm totally out there so I have no experience with anonymous comments on Blogger.

Moonshadow said...

Fellowshipping isn't ecumenism. And Catholics are mostly all down with fellowshipping ... a taste of the exotic and the forbidden?

Ecumenism is discovering our agreements and our differences. Now, I think Jennie is at pains to disagree - that we are wrong through and through - to the point of shooting herself in the foot. And I said that. It pains me to see her deny herself for the sake of refuting us. She's even less ecumenical, if that were possible, but, in her case, it's conscious and deliberate.

In our case, we're just bad at it.

Erin said...

I agree with Moonshadow. Ecumenism is really about finding the things that unite us without denying or lessening the importance of the disagreements.

It is, however, a two way street. To be ecumenical, both parties must be willing to actually listen to the other, meaning, listening without immediately assuming that you must refute what they say. Jennie and Candy obviously don't do that.

I'm finding that I'm actually having to catch myself on this on occasion. My pendulum swung so far from Protestant to Catholic that I've had a stretch where I've written something off as "Protestant" unfairly, and knowing that the other party was of good will. It's a process.

Candy and Jennie are both unwilling to listen and entertain the possibility that they may be wrong. It's then a fruitless conversation.

Moonshadow said...

They aren't willing to meet us in the middle. This is so in real life, too.

Certainty doesn't persuade me. I'm attracted to someone without all the answers ... but who hopes and believes just the same.

To the extent that we model the ecumenical spirit of listening and trying to see their side, we're doing our job. It's also for their benefit that they listen to themselves and to their own arguments. Something that always sounded strong may begin to sound weak.

That's why I like to break out of the routine topics to which they just cut & paste their replies from previous posts without engaging anew. And maybe if we show that we are thinking and engaging, they will too. Of course, everyone has a life apart from this ... :-)

However, this washing their hands of us isn't what Christ would ever do. Maybe that's debatable. But I don't think he would. So, I suppose I should point that out on Jennie's blog.

Elena said...

Actually my understanding of ecumenism is closer to the Free Online Dictionaries: 1. A movement promoting unity among Christian churches or denominations.
2. A movement promoting worldwide unity among religions through greater cooperation and improved understanding.

I'm not sure why that couldn't include worshiping.

I'd hardly call old fashioned Church of the Brethren exotic?

but you know I've done this type of thing for ten years. I much rather be immersed in all things Catholic at this point in my life than to be constantly clearing up misunderstandings with folks like Jennie and Candy. Life is short and I rarely find apologetics of this sort to be fun any more.

Moonshadow said...

Maybe I should have said that fellowshipping doesn't exhaust ecumenical activities. Ecumenism isn't summed up in fellowshipping alone, or doesn't subsist in fellowshipping.

But, yes, ideally, ecumenical dialogue would involve joint worship services. And I think, at an official level, if often does. A few times a year I worship at the Presbyterian church where I take Bible study and at the Christian and Missionary Alliance church where I take Precepts. I think this is an important dimension to understanding them, walking with them, partnering with them. As much as my conscience allows me.

But our lives have seasons, you know that. So if you're done for now, you're done. Nobody's going to argue with that.