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Tuesday, September 22, 2009

Candy - Geography not her biggest forte.

Today Candy Brauer at Keeping the home.com writes:

Welcome to Keeping The Home:

"Another point to mention, is that the whore that rides the beast is a city that sits atop seven hills. The only city in the world that houses a HUGE religious entity is Rome. Rome sits on top of seven hills."






The Vatican, the Holy See, is located on its very own hill, across the Tiber river.

The Vatican City State is the smallest sovereign state in the world, occupying an area of little less than ½ km2 in the centre of Rome. It covers St. Peter's Square, the Basilica of St. Peter, the Vatican Museums and adjacent buildings, and the garden behind all this. A number of major churches in Rome and the Papal palace in Castel Gandolfo have extraterritorial status and are under the jurisdiction of the Holy See.



Candy tends to hae a very limited repertoire and must constantly recirculate thigns she ahs already posted because the boundaries of her knowledge base on Catholicism are definitely finite.

As it turns out, we already did a post on this in September of 2007. Thanks Candy for making it so easy for us to just keep rebutting you!

Whore of Babylon written by Colin Donovan, STL

(Colin B. Donovan, STL is Vice President for Theology at EWTN. A layman, he has the Licentiate in Sacred Theology)



Judging by the criteria of biblical fundamentalism (literal words literally
understood) it is certain that there is no mention of the Catholic Church in the
book of Revelation as the Whore of Babylon. By contortions of interpretation
(not biblical literalism) some groups and individuals equate the Whore in
Revelation 17:9 with the Catholic Church since Rome is the famous city of seven
hills and the Church's principal See is Rome. This position is untenable, both
factually and from the only words of Scripture which tell us of the actual
doctrine of the Antichrist, those of the apostle John in his letters.


There would seem to be two choices, either interpret Rev 17:9 absolutely literally or according to some interpretive key that is metaphorical, allegorical or otherwise non-literal. Lets look first at literal interpretation.

"The seven heads represent seven hills on which the woman sits." First of all, no Pope has ever lived or had his "seat" (cathedra or cathedral) on any of the seven hills of Rome. These hills are small hillocks (Capitoline, Palatine, Esquiline, Aventine and three lesser "bumps" in central Rome) where the religion and government of pagan Rome was situated. The Catholic Church's headquarters at the Lateran (the cathedral) and at the Vatican (where the Pope lives) does not coincide with them. At the time that John wrote Revelation the Christians of Rome lived mostly in Trastevere (trans Tiber), a district "across the Tiber" from the City and adjacent to the Vatican hill where St. Peter was crucified and buried. The Vatican is on top of that burial site and is today its own city-state distinct from Rome and Italy.


So, of what was St. John

speaking when he wrote Revelation on the island of Patmos around 96 AD?

Obviously of the pagan imperial system situated on the Seven Hills, especially
the Capitoline (the religious and political center) and the Palatine (the imperial palace). This pagan power persecuted the Church of Rome in Nero's day (64-67 AD), and in the mid-90s under Domitian was persecuting Christians throughout the Roman world. Domitian was considered by the people a re-incarnation of the evil, but well-liked, Nero (the head that lives again).

While the antichrist Nero persecuted only the Christians of Rome, Domitian extended that persecution throughout the empire. Both are thus types of the final persecutor, the Antichrist.


Why the cryptic name Babylon? First, the historical Babylon was the pagan power which persecuted the People of God, the Jews, between 610 and 538 BC, destroying the Temple and dispersing the people. The Romans inherited that mantle of infamy when they destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, and, more importantly, persecuted the new People of God, the Church. Thus, St. Peter, writing from Rome refers to as "Babylon" (1 Pt. 5:13) - a name any Jew or Christian familiar with the Old Testament would know.


How does this relate to the Antichrist? The future Antichrist will be a world-wide power, essentially pagan, which will persecute the Catholic Church (and orthodox Christians in general) everywhere, as the Babylonians persecuted the Jews and 1st century Rome the Church. These are biblical types! The Babylon of John's day, Rome, stands for the kingdom of the future Antichrist and is no more likely to be situated in Italy than Rome needed to be situated in Babylonia (modern Iraq). John was informing his readers of these prophetic types by drawing their attention to the contemporary fulfillment they found in pagan Rome. The Antichrist will come out of the Christian world (Greco-Roman civilization) to be sure (1 John 2:19), but America is as much an inheritor of that civilization as Europe and just as likely to be the source of the Antichrist.

Finally, after distorting the text and history to read what they want into the Bible, and thereby obtaining God's "blessing" on their hatred of the Catholic Church, some "Christians" ignore the only texts of Scripture which tells us about the religious leanings of the Antichrist. The Catholic faith being a religion you would think they would see what it teaches on the only criteria the Bible actually gives about the Antichrist. In St. John's letters (1 John 4, 2 John 1), he tells us that the spirit of the Antichrist denies the Incarnation (the Son of God becoming man) and thereby also the Trinity (the Father and the Spirit, too). This is the spirit of the Antichrist.

There is not a single text in 2000 years, including the new Catechism of the
Catholic Church, where the Catholic Church, her popes, her bishops, her official
teachings, her saints, or her acknowledged ecclesiastical authors, deny the
Word-made-flesh or the Blessed Trinity. Instead, all of Christianity owes the
preservation of these Truths to the Catholic Church, whose great Councils
formulated them and whose saints and popes have defended them to this day, often
at the cost of martyrdom. The present pope, John Paul II, has written three great encyclical (circular) letters on the Trinity, one for each Divine Person,and he has without a doubt preached Jesus Christ to more people than any other person in human history. The Catholic Church does not have the spirit of the Antichrist but of God, since no one without the Spirit can say "Jesus is Lord" (1 Cor. 12:3), something the Church and Catholics always have done and continue to do!

58 comments:

Kelly said...

There are a surprising number of cities built on seven hills. Constantinople is another city with a major religious center. At least, it used to be, for the Byzantine Church.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

That 'Babylon' was Rome of John's day is correct. Rome was the political/economic center of Western Civilization, and an enforcer false religion that was in opposition to God. That was also the view of the Church Fathers and of correct Biblical exegesis.

Correct Biblical exegesis also shows that 'Babylon' of our day is the world system of politics/economics/religion opposed to God.

The AntiChrist is another story.

Peace.

Elena said...

OK... so? Candy's exegesis obviously is wrong. Or are you agreeing with her?

Daughter of Wisdom said...

I really do not have time to read Candy's posts. Many are historically erroneous, and as such I have no time for that. Based on the quote you posted (and I am trusting you that this is an accurate quote), she is CORRECT about the ancient city of Rome sitting on top of seven hills, but INCORRECT in placing the Vatican city on the seven hills of Rome. That is what I got from what I have read so far. She is getting her facts all mixed up.

Peace.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Kelly,

You are right about Constantinople. It was also the capital of the re-united Roman empire (East and West) under emperor Constantine. The city of Rome was still important, but the emperor moved his palace, and hence rule to Constantinople.


Peace.

Elena said...

The point however is that the Vatican does not fit the geographical point that Candy is trying to give it. We have pointed this out to her before. She has never rebutted it. She believes that if she says something over and over enough I guess eventually it will be true.

Dr MikeyMike said...

Yes, there seems to be an inability for among many to separate pre-Christian Rome from the Roman Catholic Church. I guess having the word 'Rome' in both terms makes it confusing.

Dr MikeyMike said...

In regards to Revelations, I mean.

Clare said...

I have posted one question and an observation to Candy's blog. Both very mild and non threatening.
Neither have been published.

That alone speaks volumes.

I'm not convinced she actually believes this stuff. I'm not even convinced that the faith she professes is sincere. At times she just comes over as an egocentric provocateur.
Certainly, the truth is not high on Candy's agenda. That much is crystal clear.
Just needed to vent.
Delete if you must.

Oh, and Hooray for VTC!
There.
I feel better now.

Kelly said...

Correct Biblical exegesis also shows that 'Babylon' of our day is the world system of politics/economics/religion opposed to God.

DOW, could you share some of those Bible verses with me? If I remember correctly, the Catholic Church teaches that, or something similar, but whenever Candy has posted verses about the One World Religion they have always seemed so vague that I didn't see how she came to that conclusion.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Kelly asked:

DOW, could you share some of those Bible verses with me? If I remember correctly, the Catholic Church teaches that, or something similar, but whenever Candy has posted verses about the One World Religion they have always seemed so vague that I didn't see how she came to that conclusion.
-----------------------------------

Kelly, I will just keep this short and simple. All that you need to know is contained in the scriptures below.


"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy....And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:1,8)

"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed" (Revelation 13:12).

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).

All the above points to a one-world religion. People will think the beast is God because he can perform miracles, call fire down from heaven, and he will also fake a resurrection (Revelation 13:3, 13,14).

Do not kid yourself that you will be able to stand firm in your faith when the AntiChrist appears. Many Christians will fall for the deception because they are not firmly grounded in truth and are thus unable to distinguish truth from error. Many church leaders will even tell their members to worship the AntiChrist because they will also be deceived into thinking the AntiChrist is really God. Think your priests or pastors will not give in? Think again.

We sometimes take it for a light matter the persecutions against Christians by Rome, thinking that we will never be called to go through that, but the fact is that many of those Christians were willing to lay down their lives for the sake of the gospel, and many also apostasized and gave in to the enemy. For lesser persecutions, many of us lose our faith, such as economic hardships, divorce, or major illness. How strong is your faith? Your church membership will not help you then, only your faith in God will. It will be you and God alone to face the enemy/AntiChrist. That is why we need to have a LIVING FAITH in God, and not just an academic, intellectual awareness of Him based on just quoting scriptures or reciting creeds and doctrines.

Peace.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Kelly and Elena,

Please do not be so hard on Jennie. You have all been blogging on each other's sites for some time now. She has been gracious to allow you to rebutt her arguments on her blog, without disinviting either one of you. Please be kind.

Peace.

Elena said...

She's invited here. But just as if she were coming into my home for dinner, there would be ground rules. Not referring to my faith as being of demons or full of lies would be one of them. KWIM?

Clare said...

DOW
Do you see a this blog and Jennies as equivalent?

It seems to me that Jennies blog, or at least a number of posts on her blog, are aimed at ATTACKING the Catholic faith.
This blog seems principally about DEFENDING it. This blog doesn't seem to set out to attack Protestantism, unlike Jennies blog, or Candys blog.
It's wearying for Catholics to have to deal with this calumniation of their faith.

When you say:
Please do not be so hard on Jennie. You have all been blogging on each other's sites for some time now. She has been gracious to allow you to rebutt her arguments on her blog, without disinviting either one of you. Please be kind.
I wonder if you are bearing that in mind?

Kelly said...

Thank you for the verses, Hillary.

I did find the part of the Catechism which deals with the Anti-Christ, in case you were interested:

The Church's ultimate trial

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.


Christians today are being asked to lay down their life for their faith. I believe there have been more martyrs in the 20th century than in any other time of history. Not only Jews, but Christians too, died in the Holocaust. Stalin and other Communist regimes tried to crush Christianity. Priests were killed during the revolutions in Spain and Mexico. Within the past year, there have been many Christians killed in India.

Traditionally, during the sacrament of Confirmation the Bishop would slap the face of the person being confirmed, in order to remind you that you have to be prepared to face persecution. Part of the reason why I do not believe Candy and Anna when they say that we are in the midst of the Tribulation is that we have it so easy here in America, compared to Christians in other times and places.

If you still doubt that those Catholics you have interacted with here on this site have a living faith, even after we have tried so much to show our love of God, and faith in Christ, then I really don't know what to say. But it really only matters what God knows.

I have enjoyed discussion with Jennie. However, it is not fun any longer. There are still topics I would like to write about, and anyone is free to comment. I will probably continue to avoid in depth discussions.

All we are asking is for mutual respect as Christians. Disagree all you like, but please do it politely, and by building up your case, not trying to tear down our Church.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

-----------------------------------

Absolutely true that AntiChrist will be a false Messiah.


676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.
-----------------------------------

Does this mean that your church does not believe in the millenial kingdom of Christ being established on the earth?


677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.
-----------------------------------

Does this mean all the church folks will die in the persecution?


Kelly, I do not underestimate the number of Christians matryrs that we have today, but there is a final trial coming for the whole world. How many of us are able to stand under situations like those? Are we prepared? Or are we just kidding ourselves? It does not matter how much one say they love God. Anybody can say that they love God when times are good. What matters is how one stands under trials and tribulations. That is how we really show that we really love God.

I am certainly not here to attack any church. If truth to be told, sometimes we Christians do things that are wrong and must therefore be addressed. To hide truth, no matter how unflattering, is just plain deception.

Peace.

Peace.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

BTW Aminhajead (I hope I spelt his name right), is on CNN talking up one-world religion.

Kelly said...

Does this mean that your church does not believe in the millenial kingdom of Christ being established on the earth?

The Catholic Church is amillenial. We believe Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, from whence He shall come again to judge the living and the dead.

In the Bible, 1000 years means "a really long time" and not necessarily a literal 1000 years. It is a number often used symbolically, such as 40.

Does this mean all the church folks will die in the persecution?

I'm not sure of the answer to that. Parts of this section of the Catechism seem to be specifically repudiating post-millenialism, which is quite in vogue in within some groups of the Catholic Church, especially those active in the social justice movement.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Thanks for the response. What belief or doctrine is there in the Catholic Church which will protect believers from the 'man of sin.'

When they see him performing miracles, call down fire from heaven, and recover from a fatal injury, what is to stop Catholics from not believing that he is God or a saint?

Daughter of Wisdom said...

The Bible also says that this 'man of sin' or AntiChrist will have an image made of himself, and cause all who worship him to bow down to that image (Revelation 13:14-15).

Is there a doctrine in the Catholic church that would prevent members from bowing down to this image?


I am asking these questions because although the time of the end-time AntiChrist may be some time in the future ( and I really do not know when), the spirit of AntiChrist has been around a long time. John mentioned it in his epistles 1 John 2:18,22; 1 John 4:3; and 2 John 2:7. Paul stated that the 'mystery of iniquity' was already at work in his day (2 Thessalonians 2:7).

The 'spirit of Antichrist' is not a person, but an attitude spurred on by demonic forces, that causes one to oppose God, especially His rule and laws (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). The AntiChrist denies the Messiahship of Christ (1 John 2:22). The AntiChrist denies the humanity of Jesus (1 John 4:3; 2 John 7).

For now, the spirit of AntiChrist will reign in the hearts of evil men, but in final stages of the age, the spirit of AntiChrist will be revealed in the real, not as a human being, but as a spiritual being. Sounds crazy, but if you believe the Bible, then this is what it says.

Peace.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Kelly wrote:

"The Catholic Church is amillenial. We believe Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, from whence He shall come again to judge the living and the dead."
-----------------------------------

Jesus said, "Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me, to give to every man according to his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12).

It is true that Jesus is coming from the right hand of God, but He is coming to reward the righteous (dead or alive) who have been faithful to him, even unto death. He will reward them with eternal life, peace, and prosperity.

Some of the unrighteous or unsaved folks who will be alive at His coming will be destroyed. A great battle will take place where the wicked will try to fight literally against Christ, but they will meet their doom at Armageddon (Revelation 16:13-21).

All the saved righteous and those of the unrighteous who were not destroyed will enter into the Messianic kingdom of Christ, where the righteous will reign with Christ for 1,000 years here on earth over the ungodly (Revelation 20:4).

After the millenium, the rest of the wicked dead will be resurrected to face the Final Judgment, also called the Last Judgment (Revelation 20:5,11-15).

That is my belief concerning the earth final days.

Before Christ comes back, the AntiChrist must come to oppose God's rule on earth. He knows that God is going to set up a kingdom here on earth, and he does everything to stop people from receiving this kingdom. He sets up a counterfeit kingdom which looks like and sounds like the real thing, but is a fake.

The kingdom of God already exists in the heart of the true believer. The job of the AntiChrist throughout the ages is to oppose the true believer, who has the kingdom of God in his/her heart. In the final days, before God sets up a literal kingdom on earth, the AntiChrist will launch a final attack against this kingdom, by deceiving the inhabitants of the earth into worshipping him instead of God.

AntiChrist is already here my friends. AntiChrist is not just an entity of the future, but continues to exist in the hearts of all those who oppose God's rule, within or outside of the church.

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us (1 John 2:18-19).


Peace.

Kelly said...

When they see him performing miracles, call down fire from heaven, and recover from a fatal injury, what is to stop Catholics from not believing that he is God or a saint?

Generally, the default position of the Catholic Church is skepticism on these sorts of things. Any apparitions, people with stigmata (the wounds of Christ), healings, etc., all need to be proved to be miraculous. If a religious (priest or nun) starts to get a following, they will be moved by their superiors, or ordered to be silent. It is only after years of careful study that these sort of phenomenon are declared to be worthy of belief, but even then, they are not required to be believed.

Is there a doctrine in the Catholic church that would prevent members from bowing down to this image?

The Catholic Church prohibits idolatry:

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them." God, however, is the "living God" who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."

Jennie said...

Good job, Hillary.

Jennie said...

Kelly,
The Catholic Church is amillenial.
It is my understanding that the teaching of the Catholic church on matters of end time prophecy has not changed for many years, or even centuries. It seems to me that this is one area of doctrine that SHOULD be changing as events occur and understanding increases and signs of the times are seen. In many areas of doctrine the RCC has changed or 'developed' but not much in this area. Is that your understanding?

Dr MikeyMike said...

It seems to me that this is one area of doctrine that SHOULD be changing as events occur and understanding increases and signs of the times are seen.

A lot of the early disciples (dare I say even a few of the apostles?) thought that Jesus would return in their lifetimes.

Solar eclipses, the Black Plague, and wars in the Middle Ages brought about 'End of the World' talk.

Considering the times that we live in are comparatively mild compared to some of the centuries our ancestors lived in, how can you really say that there are 'signs' pointing towards The End? Weather, Wars, and Politics are like statistics in the fact that you can make them say anything.

With that said:

Luke 12:40
You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour."

Mark 13:33
Beware, keep alert; for you do not know when the time will come.

Matthew 24:42
Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2
Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.


With that said, some of those from Jesus's own mouth, how can you say that you (or some of those 'End is Coming' Evangelicals) are qualified to interpret signs that the End is approaching?

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Dr. Mike wrote:

"A lot of the early disciples (dare I say even a few of the apostles?) thought that Jesus would return in their lifetimes."
-----------------------------------
That is true, and that's why God gave them the prophecies in 2 Thessalonians and the book of Revelation, and so on to clarify some of their misconceptions.

As we see the time approaching, God will continue to send clarity to those of us who long for His return.

Peace.

Dr MikeyMike said...

DOW, you are missing my point.

There were a lot of faithful later in the Middle Ages who interpreted disease, war, solar eclipses, and more as the 'End of the World' and they had the scripture that you mentioned earlier. Why are we any different today, especially when things are comparatively better in many ways?

As we see the time approaching, God will continue to send clarity to those of us who long for His return.

What do you mean by clarity? I think he was pretty clear. It will happen when we least expect it and that we cannot know when it will occur. If you mean by clarity that He is bringing revelation to the 'End of the World' Evangelists, then that is contrary to scripture.

Jennie said...

Dr. M,
You quoted:
Luke 12:40
You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour."


But Jesus also said:
Luke 21:29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

In the Luke 21 (and Matthew 24) passage Jesus gave many signs to look for so beleivers would not be taken by surprise.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
(emphasis mine)

Why did Jesus give us the signs if He would not enable us to interpret them? Has the RCC interpreted them for you so you know what to look for?

The book of Revelation, as well as Daniel and the other prophets, has given us a rule to use so that when the signs occur, we will see them if we have been abiding in His word and watching. The Spirit gives light to those who seek Him with all their hearts and long for His return, as scripture says. We all need to do this for ourselves.

Jennie said...

Oops, I messed up on trying to make part of the verses bold, so the whole verse is bold.

Jennie said...

Dr. M,
Considering the times that we live in are comparatively mild compared to some of the centuries our ancestors lived in, how can you really say that there are 'signs' pointing towards The End?
You keep saying that the times are relatively mild; but they are deceptively mild for us here in the US. Paul does say, 'they will be saying "peace and safety" and then sudden destruction will come upon them.'
Also, there are other signs besides wars and famine, etc. What about the book of Revelation that foretells a world religion and government that persecutes believers that will not give up their testimony of Jesus Christ. The world is much closer to this than it ever has been before. There is technology that could make many of the prophecies in Rev. possible, like the mark of the beast that one must have to buy and sell.

Elena said...

The AnnaMatrix blog predicted the end of the world earlier this week...ooops!

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Good job, Hillary

Thanks, Jennie! :-)

Dr MikeyMike said...

So either Jesus is contradicting himself between Luke 12:40 and Luke 21:29, or there is something we are not looking at.

Upon reading a few of the verses before Luke 21:29, it sounds as if Jesus's parable is more appropriate in the time period of of the End, as opposed to the events leading up to it:

Luke 21:25-28
"There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on earth nations will be in dismay, perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves. People will die of fright in anticipation of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these signs begin to happen, stand erect and raise your heads because your redemption is at hand."


Why did Jesus give us the signs if He would not enable us to interpret them?

It is not a stretch to say that those who interpret these signs and verses come to different conclusions. As for the hard-core "End of the World" evangelists:

Luke 21:8 He answered, "See that you not be deceived, for many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he,' and 'The time has come.' Do not follow them!

If you were to come to tell me that Hurricane Katrina, the election of Obama, et al., was pointing towards the End of the World, I'd just count you as one of those individuals that Jesus is warning against.

Jennie said...

One look at AnnaMatrix's blog was enough for me. She uses bad language and is disobeying scripture by trying to predict the day when it is said we will only know the general time and to keep watching in anticipation.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Dr. Mike wrote:

"What do you mean by clarity? I think he was pretty clear. It will happen when we least expect it and that we cannot know when it will occur. If you mean by clarity that He is bringing revelation to the 'End of the World' Evangelists, then that is contrary to scripture."
-----------------------------------

The end of the world will come as a surprise to only those who are not paying attention. Those of us who are paying attention will not be caught unawares.

Dr MikeyMike said...

What about the book of Revelation that foretells a world religion and government that persecutes believers that will not give up their testimony of Jesus Christ.

Where is the world religion that you are refering to, curiously? Do I even want to ask?

Governments that persecutes believers are nothing new. Nor are governments of believers that persecute believers of another flavor.

Dr MikeyMike said...

The end of the world will come as a surprise to only those who are not paying attention. Those of us who are paying attention will not be caught unawares.

Uhm...

Luke 12:40 "You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour."

Mark 13:33-37
33 Beware, keep alert; for you do not know when the time will come. 34 It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his slaves in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. 35 Therefore, keep awake--for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or at dawn, 36 or else he may find you asleep when he comes suddenly. 37 And what I say to you I say to all: Keep awake."


Uhm. That means that not even the believers will know, so be prepared all the time.

Jennie said...

Dr. M,
Jesus is not contradicting Himself, but neither is it a total mystery. He said we won't know the EXACT time or day but when we see the signs we will know the time is near, and we should 'lift up our heads, for our redemption draws near.'

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Dr. Mike,

Do not be deceived by signs such as calamities, wars, and natural disasters as indicative of the nearness of Christ's return. Although we expect a general increase in natural disasters and wars, they are not a reliable indicator of the nearness of Christ's return. It just simply means that we will have a lot of disasters and calamities throughout the whole end-time period. Here are Christ's exact words:

"Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows (Matthew 24:3-8).

The natural disasters and calamities which happened before during the Middle Ages and onward are just a continuation of the disasters outlined by Jesus, which started during the time of the apostles, with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, in 70 AD.

Peace.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Dr. Mike wrote:

Uhm. That means that not even the believers will know, so be prepared all the time.

-----------------------------------

Exactly! It is the believers who are unprepared that will be caught unawares.

Peace.

Jennie said...

Dr. M,
Where is the world religion that you are refering to, curiously? Do I even want to ask?

There are many things happening that point to this. Many leaders are calling for a uniting and cooperation among religions. Tony Blair, President Ahmajinahad, the last two popes, and many others have contributed to this. There is also a growing opposition to the kind of Christianity that says Jesus Christ is the only way to God, and that we are sinners in need of salvation.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Dr. Mike asked:

Where is the world religion that you are refering to, curiously? Do I even want to ask?

Governments that persecutes believers are nothing new. Nor are governments of believers that persecute believers of another flavor.
-----------------------------------

All true. The key to knowing when the end is upon us is Matthew 24:14:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

As the gospel message is carried into the whole world, nations and religious leaders who are antagonist towards Christianity will oppose these conversions, and persecute the converts to Christianity. We are already seeing news of Christian persecution increasing around the world.

Look for an increase in Christian persecutions as the gospel spreads and threatens the existence of other religions.

One world religion is something which will happen later to counter Christianity, or the worship of the one true God.

Peace.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Jennie, I am only guessing here, but I think the call for interfaith dialogue and unity that is going on is an effort to promote religious tolerance and to decrease religious persecutions.

I think it will backfire because as the gospel spreads, and more and more people accept Christ, especially in countries previously closed off to Christianity, persecutions will increase as non-Christians religious leaders try to counter the loss of followers to Christianity. I don't think they will sit idly by as they lose followers to Christianity. The talk of interfaith cooperation and toleration may look good on paper, but the human nature to protect 'turf' may override any of those ideals.

I may be wrong in this. I have no real knowledge in this.

Peace.

Jennie said...

The Alliance of Civilizations is playing a big part in the cooperation of religions and nations:
http://www.unaoc.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_of_Civilizations

Jennie said...

Hillary,
Jennie, I am only guessing here, but I think the call for interfaith dialogue and unity that is going on is an effort to promote religious tolerance and to decrease religious persecutions.
Yes, partly, but when Christianity won't agree not to proselytize other religions and compromise the gospel it will not be tolerated.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Yes, I can see that happening. I live in a multicultural community, with a good level of religious tolerance. I know for a fact however that my non Christian neighbors hate it when we try to convert them to Christianity.

I guess the best we can expect out of these interfaith dialogue is mutual respect and toleration for diverse religions. The worst we can expect is resentment and retaliation against the prosleytizing efforts of Christians. I think it is going to hit us Christians real hard because we have a mandate to spread the gospel.

On the good side I think this interfaith dialogue will open up opportunities for Christians in non Christian countries to practice and spread Christianity. On the down side, people will eventually retaliate against any perceived threat that Christianity might pose to their native religion, especially if they get their governments involved in opposing the spread of Christianity.

I know in Iran they have been calling for separation of church and state. That is a western philosphy. That will open up Iran to the possibility of the gospel going there, but may also be seen as a threat to an Islamic state.

Some really interesting developments on the world scene.


Peace.

Elena said...

any other thoughts on the Vatican being the city on 7 hills?

Jennie said...

Elena,
I dont't think the city on 7 hills is the vatican, but I do think it is symbolic of Rome as a religious and political power that rules the whole world.

Dr MikeyMike said...

How is it a religious power that rules the whole world?

Jennie said...

Dr. M,
The picture in Rev. 17 is of the Woman riding the Beast. She sits on the Beast who has 7 heads, and the 7 heads are 7 hills that represent 7 kings. She also sits on many waters that represent many nations, peoples, and tongues. The Woman, Babylon the mother of harlots, is riding the beast. The beast is the government and the woman is for a while both being carried by and controlling the beast. They work together, until she is judged and burned with fire by the 10 kings who rule the world with the beast at the end.

Jennie said...

The Woman in prophecy always represents either the faithful church (or Israel) or the unfaithful church (or Israel). Israel and the church are really one, but this has not been completed yet.

Elena said...

So it's the Italians you have to watch out for Mike! ;-)

Jennie said...

Hey, my grandparents came from Italy!

Daughter of Wisdom said...

The word 'Babylon' can be traced back to the book of Genesis where it was first used to describe the confusion of languages at the tower of Babel, when man tried to build a tower to heaven and establish a city-nation in disobedience to God (see Genesis 11). As such, Babylon means 'confusion' and also represents man's attempt to oppose the rule of God. 'Babylon' is thus a code word for any state of anarchy or opposition against God's rule or laws, whether by governments, false religions (including apostate Christianity), the political system, world economic systems, and so on. Babylon also represents the worldly system apart from God.

At the time of Nimrod, Babylon was located in the land of Shinar, somewhere in the Middle East(Genesis 11:2). At the time of John, Babylon was located in the seven hills of Rome, in Europe (Revelation 17:9). Wherever the ruling opposing power was, that was where Babylon could be found. In Babylon is found "the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth" (Revelation 18;24). This means that Babylon also represents all the persecuting powers of the world that had killed and waged war throughout the ages, starting with the murder of innocent Abel.

The question that must then be asked is this. Is it possible for a church to be a part of Babylon? The answer is YES! If a church sets itself up with doctrines and teachings opposed to God, and persecutes God's people, then that church is a part of the Babylonian system. That is one of the reasons why God calls His people to come out of her, because some of His people are caught up in Babylon (Revelation 18:4).

I believe Babylon represents worldly systems opposed to God, false religion, and apostate Christianity. By definition, an apostate Christian is one who has fallen away from the truth or who walks in error. God is calling us out of falsehood and confusion, and into His Truth. He says, "Come out of her, my people" (Revelation 18:4).

Peace.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

One last note. We need to understand that Babylon is a concept, and not an actual woman, nation, church, or organization. Babylon is a philosphy or ideology. It is a way of thinking. Babylon rides the beast. The beast is controlled by the Babylonian ideology, and bases it's actions off the principles of Bablyon. That is why when Babylon is defeated, the kings of the earth turn upon her and burn her with fire, and eat her flesh, because they realize too late that they had been fooled by wrong and deceptive thinking. They are going to realize too late that they were following vain philosphies.

The beast (AntiChrist) however will be an actual organization or real power in the world.

Peace.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Hey guys, what do you all think of the Babylonian idea that God's Ten Commandment law is no longer binding? Many churches teach this doctrine, which in my opinion is a doctrine that opposes God.

What about the gay clergy ordination issue that is destabilizing many churches today?

Elena and Kelly, you might want to start another thread to discuss these!

Peace and blessings,
Hillary

Barbara C. said...

Actually, Babylon means "gate of the Gods". Although the name is similar to the Hebrew word for "he confused". The homophone for "babble" only truly works in English.

I first learned this from my Old Testament/Judaic Studies professor who also reads and writes Akkadian, Assyrian, and Sumerian, in addition to ancient Hebrew.

And as a running theme in the OT, God confused the languages because the people were trying to make themselves as God, not just being disobedient.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Barbara wrote:

'Actually, Babylon means "gate of the Gods". Although the name is similar to the Hebrew word for "he confused". The homophone for "babble" only truly works in English.'

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Thanks Barbara for the info. but I did my exegesis directly from the Bible.

Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth (Genesis 11:9).

The Hebrew word translated 'Babel' or 'Babylon' is the word Babel, which means 'confusion.' (Strong #894). The interpretation 'gate of the gods' is Akkadian in origin from the word 'Babilim.' When did the Akkadian usage come into being? Definitely not at the time of the occurrence of the confusion, but afterwards, as a descriptive term to describe what they assumed occurred. Akkadian was a language of the ancient Sumerians, who by the way existed as a separate civilization AFTER the scattering of the nations, not before, nor during the time of the tower of Babel. The Sumerian pagan religion attributed the happenings at the tower of Babel to the 'gods.'



Barbara also wrote:
"And as a running theme in the OT, God confused the languages because the people were trying to make themselves as God, not just being disobedient."

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The reason for the confusion is that the people did not want to be scattered around the face of the globe.

And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth (Genesis 11:4).

They wanted to stay in one spot, and glorify themselves, in opposition in God. I have read the accounts from the ancient writings, and their disobedience was an outright act of rebellion and opposition to God. As a matter of fact, the tower of Babel marked the birth of paganism in the post-flood earth. These flood survivors started to worship the Ante-deluvians as gods, instead of God. As they were scattered, they took their pagan ideas with them, throughout the world. Again, I have read the ancient historical accounts pertaining to the Antedeluvians and the worship of them which followed post-flood.

Peace.