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Thursday, November 5, 2009

Candy on Quiverful, Sex and Procreation

Apparently Candy has been taking some flack for her illogical and hard to follow views on procreation and sexuality. Her latest post on Welcome to Keeping The Home regarding "Quiverfull, Sex, Procreation" was an attempt to clarify but it still seems a little muddled to me.

She starts out with Psalm 127:

Psalm 127
1Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.
2It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep.
3Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
4As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
5Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.
Verse one sets the tone for the whole Psalm - 'Except the LORD build...' We have people today with big, beautiful houses, but the Lord was not with them in building their homes. Their homes are not blessed. Cities and areas where the LORD is not allowed to reign lose blessings. (Thank God Christ will soon come back and reign.) It is not good to stay up late, and get up early, else you are not taking the sleep and rest that God desires for you. Children are 'an heritage of the LORD' if 'the LORD build the house.' Certainly there are pagan families who have very large families; I've met some. Was the Lord in that? There are also very large Christian families, where the parents are like baby-making factories, yet there is no joy, no rest, and utter turmoil in their family life. Did THEY decide to have child after child after child after child without the Lord's being in it?

There are a couple of telling things in here. First of all I believe and I always thought other Christians believed this as well, that only God can knit a child in the womb and only God creates and gives a soul. Whenever a Baby is made, God is in it. Even a baby conceived from rape is a child created and loved by God.

Secondly, utter turmoil and lack of rest does not mean that a family is not Godly, or unhappy or that God isn't with them. Everyone knows how much Candy values orderliness and cleanliness. That's great. God bless her for that. But it doesn't mean that other moms and dads who struggle with that are somehow less Godly. Good housekeeping can sometimes, in my opinion, become its own false idol.



Certainly baby-making is not 100% up to God, else what are non-Christians doing having babies, with some of those poor babies being abused? 
While I agree that parents co-participate with God in baby making I reiterate that God is definitely 100% involved with each and every conception.

God gave us free will in all aspects in our lives, and that includes procreation. 
That is absolutely true and with free will comes responsibility. But it also means that not every choice we make is good, holy and pleasing to God. It simply means that He allows us to have free will.  Some choices have consequences and most times God lets us suffer with them.


Let's get something straight - there are not these eternal, disembodied spririts floating around hoping that you have a baby so that that spirit can have a life.
Very True. God makes each individual soul separately for each new life conceived.  Prior to that, each of us was just a thought in the mind of God. 

That's not how it works. NOT having children is NOT a sin! We are not 'preventing a life that could have been' by deciding to not have children.
Actually, the Catholic church comes very close to teaching this same thing.  Children are a gift from God and God loves to bless with life and bless abundantly!  But when parents discern that they are not in a position to accept a new life or must postpone a pregnancy the church teaches that it must be for a serious matter. The purpose of marriage is to raise up Godly offspring.  To forgo conceiving and raising up Godly children is not something to be taken lightly.


However when one has children when they hear the still, small voice of the Lord, then when they produce seed after their own kind, they know 'the LORD built the house.' All four of my children are here, because my husband and I both felt that God wanted us to have each child. Every conception was God-led.
This in my opinion is simply Candy theology and I wouldn't be surprised if she ticks off a lot of people who read it.  "The Lord built the house" whether one hears a little voice or not, or if a baby is simply conceived after a romantic Saturday night or by a couple who thought they were past conceiving.  I think Candy is trying to say here that only planned children from a "still small voice" are conceived of the Lord?  And that of course is ridiculous.


Then we have a paragraph that falls under the TMI department, but it sounds to me that it's up to Eric whether conception occurs or not because Onanism is a guy thing.  And if Candy isn't on board with that then it couldn't  possibly be from God.  It's a very twisted piece of logic.


Someone commented on one of my quiverfull posts, and said that she knew the Lord wanted her to have three children. She had her three, and when she and her husband tried to have more, it was miscarriage after miscarriage. I believe this woman and her husband were hearing from the Lord as well. They have three beautiful children.
This part blows me away.  I am the mother of a stillborn son, born when I was 42.  I could have taken, and indeed I think that is the message of the culture that that was my cue to stop having babies and being open to new life.  We went on to conceive at age 45 and have a beautiful baby girl that I have way too many pictures of in my Flickr account.  Miscarried and stillborn children are still part of God's plan for us.  Those little souls pray for us and are there to greet us in the end.  I know of a woman who had ten miscarriages and ten live births inbetween.  A miscarriage or stillbirth isn't necessarily a punishment, or a call to not be open to the gift of new life.



I'm an only child, and I can guarantee you that all by myself I filled my parents' quiver! :-P
... no comment.


Sex is NOT purely for procreation.

Sex is not purley for recreation and pleasure either.  The Catholic church teaches that they are entertwined and that it is sinful to deliberately separate one from the other and why the church calls contraception intrisically evil as well as prohibiting certain fertility treatments. 

Other links and articles on the topic in my del.icio.us files.

29 comments:

Moonshadow said...

Cities and areas where the LORD is not allowed to reign

Do you get that? I do but, I wonder, who else does?

Yes, it's telling that she's an only child and feels that way about herself. It's pitiful, even.

I think of what Jacob's "quiver" did to Shechem (Gen. 34 KJV).

Kelly said...

With my oldest, I knew it was time to start having children, and I felt strongly the Lord leading me. My husband was scared to have kids - hee hee, typical young man, right?

I like how she implies that they were both young when they started to have children. I mean, not that I think that the 30's are old age, but there is a significant age difference between her and her husband, and I'm not sure he really qualified as the typical scared young man.

Plus, she says that they were both in agreement about when God wanted them to have each child--right after she says that she wanted to have a baby and her husband didn't, but after God intervened to have her ovulate 3 times in once month, he came around.

I do agree that this version of her beliefs is very similar to the Catholic theology. However, we would disagree that when she says "the Bible is clear that it is there to be a beautiful thing between husband and wife. It is the physical union of two becoming one." that whatever they are doing that is "being careful" is allowing them to become one.

Elena said...

Whatever they are doing to "be careful" requires more laundry.

Her logic is so twisted I get a kink in my neck trying to follow it.

I really wish we could read the comments from her naysayers - that would be some pretty interesting read.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Kelly wrote:

"Ido agree that this version of her beliefs is very similar to the Catholic theology. However, we would disagree that when she says "the Bible is clear that it is there to be a beautiful thing between husband and wife. It is the physical union of two becoming one." that whatever they are doing that is "being careful" is allowing them to become one."
-----------------------------------

Non spiritual sexuality says, "sex is a physical union between two people."

It should be noted however that physical union without spiritual union is INCOMPLETE. The purpose of the physical union is to foster a spiritual union between husband and wife, and consequently God and man - that is the basis for sacred sexuality.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Some people approach sex as if they are performing a religious duty. That is not what it is all about. It is about deepening the bond of love between husband and wife. Sex, if practiced as a sacred act, is not a superficial fleshy activity, but a deeply spiritual practice that allows love to grow, and that brings us closer to God's ideal of love.

I don't much about Candy, but it sounds as if she is going through a period of sexual awakening, or struggling with the question of how to deal with sex when one wants no more children. At first, things were clear - have sex to have children. Now things are not so clear - don't want to have any more kids but still want sex. If she starts to approach sex from a spiritual perspective instead of a fleshy one, then she will find the peace, joy, and beauty of sex.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

I meant to say, " I don't know much about Candy."

This issue she is struggling with is a real issue which all couples must face, in deciding whether to continue reproducing or not, even though their reproductive apparatuses are still fully functioning. Should they have as many children as they possibly can until menopause? Or is it okay to stop reproducing before menopause?

Elena said...

Or is it okay to stop reproducing before menopause?

That's the question isn't it.


The Catholic Church says that for serious or grave reasons, it is okay to postpone or avoid pregnancy with abstinence during fertile times.

I look at my 4 year old born to me when I was 46 and wonder what would have been a serious enough reason not to have her. She has brought such joy.

Enbrethiliel said...

+JMJ+

I'm an only child, and I can guarantee you that all by myself I filled my parents' quiver! :-P

I don't know about you, but I can't see the logic with that ego blocking my view!

In fairness, I think anyone who tries to make up his own theology of something as complex as sex ends up biting off more than he can chew. So I'm going to cut Candy a little bit of slack for this impossible task she has set for herself.

Kelly said...

That could also be directed to her parents. She didn't have the best upbringing.

Kelly said...

Although Im not sure that verse should really be used with respect to her parents, since they weren't Christian. She wouldn't be an arrow in the hand of a Godly warrior.

Elena said...

Candy again insists that it isn't exactly 100% up to God and mentions the 13 year old rape victim etc. Any thoughts on that?

Dr MikeyMike said...

If something is not 100% up to God, that would place a limitation on him. Wouldn't that fly in the face of him being omnipresent, omniscient, and all-powerful? We all know that God allows unpleasant things to happen, and I don't see how the 13 yr-old rape victim is any different. If she is pregnant from such an event, God still created the soul of the child within.

Kelly said...

Wow! You should add the comment to the article, but I'll put it here, too.

Brandy, Charity and I are in agreement as well. That's what this article is about - that it's up to God. However, people have the choice too.

If it were completely up to God, then how are unwed 13 your old girls having drug babies? It happens all too often. Did the Lord decide to make a 13 year old drug addicted girl to fornicate, because He willed for her to have a Heroin-addicted baby?

Therefore, we have some responsibility in this as well. This is why God ~said~ "be fruitful and multiply," implying that He gave us responsibility on this. Else, why give that command, if it's 100% His decision.

God also wants all of us to go to heaven, but the decision is up to us. We choose to walk with the Father, or not to.

Ultimately, for Christian couples, they should take their procreation to God. As for unChristian couples, I can't think of any specific guidance Scriptures.
Candy


I think Candy is going down a slippery slope here. As Dr. Mikey says, God lets bad things happen to good people, and we also know that good came come of it. Babies that are born to 13 year old drug addicts are no less eternal souls than those born to Christians.

It's also a little hypocritical to say "Would God will for her to fornicate" when Candy wrote previous that God told her to follow Erik when he moved to a different state, and they then lived together there before marriage. She apparently believes that it was God's will that they live together in sin (as she has also said that they were not chaste before marriage).

Dr MikeyMike said...

If it were completely up to God, then how are unwed 13 your old girls having drug babies? It happens all too often. Did the Lord decide to make a 13 year old drug addicted girl to fornicate, because He willed for her to have a Heroin-addicted baby?

Ultimately, for Christian couples, they should take their procreation to God. As for unChristian couples, I can't think of any specific guidance Scriptures.


I think Candy forgets that God is involved in the lives of everyone, rather they believe in Him or not. Although we certainly have Free Will, I think its arrogant to think that we can someone maneuver out of His plan through our machinations. It should be no surprised that He is the Master of Making "Lemonade" when we give him "Lemons". I think the very person of Jesus and His Mission is testament to that.

unknown anon said...

For someone who claims not to judge others, that statement about the 13-year old proves just how much she does.

How much culpability does a grade-school student hold in terms of drug addiction and rape? Is it a 'choice' or 'exploitation?' And ought the Christian respond? I think not in the tone she uses.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Let me see if I can attempt to answer the question about 13-year-old drug addicted or raped girls who have babies.

Reproduction is a process with the power to create new life. Although God is the Creator of us all, we need to understand that certain aspects of reproduction are set on 'auto pilot' and hence are automatic. We must not think that God is forming each and every baby with His hands in the womb during pregnancy. He has instituted a process whereby babies can be created under the rules of natural law. Hence, sinners can make babies just as much as saved folks.

God tells no one to commit sexual immorality. People who commit sexual immorality are following their own inclinations and lusts. An act of illict sex causes pregnancy because it sets off a chain of natural processes that go into creating a baby. Within these processes things can sometimes go wrong such as babies born with birth defects or addictions because of error in the processes from either internal or external causes.

We must all give God thanks when babies are born healthy, because so much can go wrong, regardless of whether the parents are sinners or saved folks.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Reproduction is a power that God has placed within our bodies. We are accountable to Him how we use that power, whether we use it to glorify Him, or for selfish purposes.

Elena said...

We must not think that God is forming each and every baby with His hands in the womb during pregnancy.

Why not? That is absolutely what the scriptures say!

Dr MikeyMike said...

Although God is the Creator of us all, we need to understand that certain aspects of reproduction are set on 'auto pilot' and hence are automatic.

This is pretty much the same attitude taken towards Christians with evolution, or Intelligent Design. Not a criticism on my part, just an observation. :)

We must not think that God is forming each and every baby with His hands in the womb during pregnancy.

Perhaps not. However, He still handcrafts each individual soul. You also mention birth defects. Though they are the result of natural processes that have gone awry, I still think we should remember that these are parts of God's plan for us.

He has instituted a process whereby babies can be created under the rules of natural law. Hence, sinners can make babies just as much as saved folks.

I agree! I want to stress, however, the role that God still has in the lives of sinners, or even non-Christians. The soul still comes from God. They are still part of his plan, no matter how much they try not to be. Yadda yadda yadda.

Dr MikeyMike said...

I like to think of it, Elena, as God having the vision of the 'bowel' and using the womb/what goes on in the womb as 'the potter's wheel'. Automated processes yet, but still with God at the driver's seat.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Daughter of Wisdom wrote:

"We must not think that God is forming each and every baby with His hands in the womb during pregnancy."

Elena responded:

"Why not? That is absolutely what the scriptures say!"
----------------------------------

FYI: Here are some scriptures that describes how God makes us through the process of reproduction. The first scripture tells us that we do not know the secret behind the process (works of God) of fetal development in the womb.

"As you do not know what is the way of the wind,Or how the bones grow in the womb of her who is with child, So you do not know the works of God who makes everything" (Ecclesiastes 11:5).

The next verses describe the wonder of the process of fetal development. David praises God for his wonderful "works" (process) of creating him in his mother's womb.

Psalm 139:13-16:

13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.



In none of these verses do we see God using His hands and literally forming a baby. God had set up certain reproductive processes to create babies. That does not mean that God does not, or cannot intervene at times. We see that when mothers have troubled pregnancies and we pray for the well-being of the mother and her baby, and God hears and intervenes and restores health.

Peace.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Hi Dr. Mike,

How do you like how the laws of nature work in complete harmony with the purposes of God? Pretty neat huh?

Elena said...

Psalm 139:13 from the National Council of Catholic Bishops sites reads thusly:

You formed my inmost being; you knit me in my mother's womb.


It doesn't get more hands on than that.

Dr MikeyMike said...

In none of these verses do we see God using His hands and literally forming a baby. God had set up certain reproductive processes to create babies.

I disagree slightly. I think he literally forms the child. There are no natural processes in utero that create the soul, to the best of my knowledge. As for the rest, just like how you have to use a hammer and a saw to build a birdhouse, so does God use the womb. It's a natural process, yes, but something that is certainly God-driven, God-controlled

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Dr. Mike wrote:

"I think he literally forms the child. There are no natural processes in utero that create the soul, to the best of my knowledge."
-----------------------------------

Ah come on Dr. Mike!:-) You know we live in the age of test tube babies, and cloning. How is it that scientists are able to fertilize sperm and egg in vitro, implant it in the womb, and impregnate women, if they are not natural processes?

I tell you, it is an awesome power God has placed in our hands, which by the way has potential for abuse. The laws of nature work, regardless of who places the sperm and egg.

Elena said...

The laws of nature work

And who is the author of the laws of nature?

It's interesting that you have such a limited understanding of God Hillary.

Kelly said...

In none of these verses do we see God using His hands and literally forming a baby.

Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Jessica said...

You are right, she did tick me off with this one. Because our family is quiverful does NOT mean that our sole purpose in life is to desperately try and have as many babies as we possibly can before our bodies are not able to anymore! It means that we have acknowledged the fact that WE HAVE NO CONTROL IN THIS AREA!!!!! And joyfully accept the gifts that God chooses to bless us with! I can't even comment on what she says here, except to say that she is trying to explain away and justify her need to control an area of her life that should be and is only under the control of God Almighty. It sounds like she is trying to convince herself that she is right. She's not.

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