Monday, January 25, 2010

The debate video

Between homeschooling, homemaking, cooking from scratch and exercising for a solid 60 minutes in the middle of the day, I have to wonder when Candy found the time to watch this long video. I fully intend to watch it and will probably have lots to say.

I did watch the first few minutes of actual talk after the opening music dragged on. My first impression is that this is not in any way, shape or form a "neutral" debate. The moderator is not "Moderate" in fact he very clearly has a bias. He also spends a great deal of time "poisoning the well" before the debate even starts, inference being that Catholicism is a "cult" and comparing it to Mormonism etc.

I only got to see a little bit of the Catholic opening statement, and to my mind the professor gets right to it- Sola Scriptura isn't scriptural. Game over. But I have to watch the rest and see the Protestant response.

To save you from going over to Candy's and having to live through the noise of her "channel", the link to youtube directly is here.


I couldn't find much on Larry Wessels. I did come across this:

Whatever anti-Catholicism leads to, it isn't inner peace. Consider the case of Larry Wessels. He used to work with Robert Morey, who has a ministry and radio program based in Austin, Texas. Morey considers himself something of an expert on the errors of "Romanism," and he has debated such defenders of the Catholic Church as Robert Fastiggi, who teaches in the religious studies department at St. Edward's University.

It seems that Wessels and Morey had a falling out. Wessels has been distributing a small-print newsletter that devotes several thousand words (plus photocopies of checks, ledgers, and letters) to the proposition that Morey is a crook. Wessels refers to his "unenviable position of being slandered by national bulk mailouts, threatened with lawsuits, and vilified by telephone by a man determined to assassinate my character and destroy my ministry." His ministry--and we take this as a compliment--is called Christian Answers.

Morey once.aspired to be heir to the late Walter Martin on the "Bible Answer Man" radio program, but Hank Hanegraaff, under Martin the president of the Christian Research Institute, got the job instead. Ever since then it's been one disappointment after another for Morey as his anti-Catholic ministry implodes-- and, apparently, as Wessels takes his own anti-Catholic operation down with Morey's.

I don't want to spend a lot of time on this. I'm guessing this debate is at least 10 years old and I would never have watched it all had Candy not posted it.

Nonetheless, if the purpose of this "debate" was to learn the truth, then it failed miserably.  I didn't learn anything about Protestantism (other than Larry Wessels seems to think it has a lot to do with disagreeing with Catholicism) and none of the Catholic points were made in a presentable clear fashion.

Also the entire forum was slanted towards the Protestant view. I would give the moderator an F.  He did nothing to clarify or moderate the discussion and consequently the two men were all over the map. The entire thing lacked focus.

Here are my notes:

Moderator is not moderate.  He is clearly poisoning the well before the discussion even starts.

Interestingly when Dr. Fastiggi opens with prayer the other men don’t pray as well or even nod their heads .They look at him as if he is doing something totally foreign to them!

Fastiggi opens strong:  Jesus would have to make it clear that he intended for scripture alone to be the only authority- this is not clear in the scriptures – he commissions the apostoles to preach.

Bible itself does not give itself the authority.

2 Thessalonians vs. 2 15. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

More than just scripture alone.

7:50  Who decided what was scripture?

If he holds to only 4 gospels then he holds to a tradition that is not in scripture.
2nd century church tradition.

8:32 Protestant opening statement.

Theme is on the Gospel message found in
1 Corinthians 15

Faith alone

9:44 What is a consequence in not believing the true gospel

1 Galations- chart – lame   Hasn’t proved that the Catholics are cursed or that the Evangelical gospel is the true one.

Anathema  eternally dammed?   Larry clearly doesn't know what Anathema really means?

Acts 16:30

Per Larry The RCC believes "Keep 7 sacraments and other decrees of the church ordained by the lord Jesus Christ and perhaps I will be saved".   – Interestingly that's not in the Catechism.   More interestingly, neither men has a copy of the catechism on their tables that I can see.  They sure don't ever quote from it.

11:40 – Moderator keeps putting in his 2 cents and continues to poison the well.

12:36   Nothing that   Larry says that Catholics deny.

Faith alone Romans 3:28  (Larry admits that alone is implied)

James 2:24 inspired word of God?  See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.  

Only time faith is with alone.

We are not saved by our works. Larry  denies it and then Dr. Fastiggi gets out Trent (I think fondly of Paul and how much he would love Dr. Fastiggi simply because he refers to Trent all the time!)

If anyone says that without divine grace man can be justified by his own works let him anathema sit.

14:48 Vatican II from Larry - no wait - they aren't ready for that yet.  Dr. Fastiggi says:If the bible alone is the only source of authority you have to prove it from the bible and secondly you have to be able to convince me that your interpretation is correct.  Luther and Zwingli disagreed on how to understand This is my Body and This is My Blood.
Reformers  divided on only the elect saved.

16:31  Saved Protestants vs. Lost Protestants on essentials they Protestants agree on apparently.

Not an essential whether JC died for the sins of all mankind.  – still equal brothers in Christ per Larry.

17:29 They're all over the place now.  Larry brings upNew Jerome Commentary  bible contains bibles, fictions myths and evolutions.

18:35 Dr. Fastiggi  explains imprimatur.   Matters still open for discussion.

20:32 Not absolutely necessary to believe that moses wrote the whole 5 books.

21:42 Dr. Fastiggi asks, "Msut every part be interpreted literally?:  Some agreement that  not every word is literal.  So Larry has agreed that some may be symbolic.

23:19 Larry says that according to his sources only 7 verses authoritatively interpreted by the Catholic Churc and seems to delight in only 2 ex cathedra doctrines although I don't think he knows what that means either.

23:28 Spirit of truth guides the tradition 

 Dr. Fastiggi gets to show off his Greek..

Acts 26 verse 22 

24:44- Larry keeps baiting the Dr.Fastiggi and it's annoying and distracting.  Why the moderator doesn't stop it is beyond me.

Larry doesn’t even know the name of the Vatican II document he quotes from. He says he knows Catholicism but if he did he would know that most Catholics refer to Vatican II by the specific documents, not by some conveniently published volumes with page numbers.  But he switches gears now from traditions and scripture to Vatican II and good works.

25:10 From the most ancient times in the church good works were always offered to God

25:56 Jumping oer to merits    Prot boy is all over the place .

26:15 RC built on works 

26:33  Dr. Fastiggi " to help one achieve salvation is scriptural.".

Letter of James calls for the conversion of sinners james 5:19. My brothers if any among you should stray from the truth  whoever brings back a sinner will save his soule from death and cover a multitude of sins.

29:03- switching topics.  We’re simply saying that our prayers and good works contribute.

29:35 by understanding biblical theology.

Dr. Fastiggi challenges Larry to tell him how he knows that his interpretation is the right one. Larry won’t answer how his interpretration is right.

31:02  Dr. Fastiggi mentions 2 Thessalonians 1:11 and reiterates that no where does it say that our good works are the foundation for our salvation.  Trent says that faith is the foundation.

The moderator continues to suck.

 Discussion is dissolving into rhetoric about deserived merit and fitting merit. I'm sure Protestants and many Catholics don't even know what the heck they're talkinga about!

34:07 Let’s center on the central issue the Catholic Church - gosh, wish the moderator had said that!

Dr. Fastiggi: "If you are saying that the Catholics believes that the foundation is our own works then you are wrong:

34:48- Classic  as taught by the letter of James.


PEEING CONTEST AT 35:57   but I persevere to the end of this stupid debate and I'm almost postive that Candy didn't even get this far!

Where is this stupid moderator.

Oh no he didn't!! ROFLOL Larry brings up  Raymond Brown and Hahns Kuhn as credible Catholic authorities...  – what a moron.

37:01  those words are to be understood in the sense  namely that we are said to be justified by faith because faith is the beginning of man’s salvation. The foundation and root of all justification without which it is notpossible to please God and tocome into the fellowship of sons

We are said to be   nothing that preceeds justification neither fiath or works merits the works of Justification for if it is by grace   Grace would no longer be grace.

38:06=   word games according to Larry. 

Well he may think he understands it, but he sure as heck can’d pronounce it.For sheer scholarship Dr. Fastiggi is making Larry look like a novice.

41:15  I hate Larry

42:28  Paul indicates that we need to grow in righteousness, we need to grow holy

Rev nothing unclean can enter heaven.  The distinction between the guilt of the sin and what was call the wound of the sin that needs to be healed by God’s grace. God’s grace working through us heals us.

43:51  where does it teach everyone has to go to purgatory?  Clue- it doesn't.

44:47- Doctor loses it when Prot Boy brings up transsubstatiation.  Push aside scriptures that don’t suit you.



46:55 Defines anathema. 

47:18 muslims can be saved.  

48:18 inscrutable God   God if he wishes could exempt because of ignorance.

49:21  whore of Babylon comes up – knew it would eventually.Yawn.

50:12   Dr. Fastiggi:  "All you are doing is giving slurs and distortions and if you are really interested in what the church teaches you would listen."

50:32  Carl Rahner Luther wrote a lot of books.  eye roll

I started listening to the closing remarks but Larry is bringing in all kinds of things that weren't in the debate and by this time I don't care about what either of them have to say.  But if you are so interested it starts around 52;40 - where the moderator makes it look like he ws really just the time keeper. 

Oh heck - let's listen to what Larry brings up
Mary like God
Necromancy occultism
Super irrigation!  (a farming term no doubt ha ha ha)
Changes in the word of God

Jehovah witness= Catholic Church

55:39 Mr. Fastiggi- very calmly "If the essence of the gospel is that we are saved   by the grace of Jesus Christ and this grace alone, this is what the CC teaches. Mr. Wessel has to show you that his church or his belief system is consistent with what the NT teaches, but he appeals to phrases as dogmas which are contracted by statements in the ible. but then says that is not what it means, that's not what it means...

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Moonshadow said...

This guy teaches at Ave Maria U. now.

Deplorable that they don't pray or even bow their heads when he opens in prayer. They look quite dumbfounded, in fact. Heathen, even.

What's Candy, like, 15 years younger than you? It makes a difference in how much can be accomplished in a day. No offense.

Elena said...

i don't think age has anything to do with it - it's a matter of priorities. Looking for hateful videos isn't one of mine.

*J* said...

Wow, kudos to you for sitting through all that! Sounds like Larry needs to read James 1:19.