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Monday, October 15, 2007

Compassion and love

Just a quick note to the responses from Amy and Sallie on this newest Candy thread.

I believe that someone can be deeply compassionate, caring and still be wrong. For example, I once new a Presbyterian minister who had a deep love and compassion for women to the point that she volunteered to escort them into the abortion centers to terminate their pregnancies. No one could doubt that this minister loved women and felt deep compassion for their many predicaments which made it difficult if not impossible in their minds to continue their pregnancies. This minister also had scriptural verses that she felt justified abortion. Yet despite the sincerity, love and compassion, I still believe that her conclusion was deeply flawed.

I can appreciate Candy's deep caring for Catholics (although I think her technique leaves a lot to be desired). My conscience is not "seared" as Amy suggests because I don't translate that care into a recognition of what they both see as the truth. It doesn't work that way.

Truth is true because it is true. Lies are false even if they are presented and held to with all sincerity and love.

23 comments:

Faithful Catholic said...

Oh, that was so well-stated. Another excellent post, Elena! Keep 'em coming.

Mrs. K. said...

Just posted this at Candy's: The defensive mood comes from not being allowed their comments published here. They are just seeking to 'talk'. Candy, as you know, you've been invited to share your feelings. I'm a christian and do not believe in the rosary; wearing a St. Christopher medal around my neck, etc. However, you have shown a tender heart here 'behind an iron gate' that you don't allow some through. You have caused hurting hearts with this. Sallie is right about many catholics being saved; however, I doubt Sallie's ever had her comment SHUT DOWN by you. It hurts. I've been there. Without even being nasty. That one feature of yours (hitting the delete button) has caused more of the rift than any disagreeing beliefs. You speak, then put up your 'hand', figuratively speaking, to say 'hush!'. I'm copying and pasting this if you do the same with this one, so, as a believer in Christ, I can show Elena or Faithful Catholic that it's just something you do. My heart burdens for the lost to know Christ. Your 'tactic' is losing more than you know.

Don't think she'll post it. I have an awful lot of respect for you, Elena. My dear aunt, who loved Jesus so dearly, was a devout catholic her whole life. He lit up the inside of her and she just glowed. After I was saved, the catholic church wasn't for me. However, I have come to learn in 30 plus years of being a christian, that it isn't catholicism that keeps one from knowing Jesus; it's the heart of the individual who chooses Him or doesn't choose Him. Have a blessed day.

Sallie said...

Compassion and love is a two way street and I have not felt that from this side. I tried to be nice and I was accused in the comments of being immature as well as having Elana lie about me. I'm not sure what you want except for me to be a "yes" person and say what you want to hear. That's just not me.

I'm sorry for your loss for your baby that I saw at your other blog.

God bless,
Sallie

Erika S. said...

Sallie-
I have held back out of respect for our mutual USMC roots but please stop calling Elena a liar. She is my friend and it is not very nice to call her that, especially when you clap and applaud Candy's OUT RIGHT LIES about Catholics.

Faithful Catholic said...

Sallie,

As Elena so eloquently pointed out in her example about the minister and the abortion seekers, it is not charitable to confirm someone in their sin.

What we have been trying to say is that Candy is telling lies about the doctrine of the Catholic Church. We have tried to point this out to her and requested that she stop. She doesn't post our comments if we address this issue. She continues to post lies after lies after lies. That is sinful. If we did not care about the state of her soul, we would not waste the energy trying to tell her this. After all, we know what the truth is about the doctrine. It is not important that she, or anyone else for that matter, agrees with the doctrine. It is important that she stop lying about it. The word "lie" is not something I throw around cavalierly. Frankly, I generally shy away from pointing out the sins of another because of my awareness of my own sinfulness and because I don't want to be misunderstood and considered less than compassionate. However, please understand that we feel every bit as passionate about our faith as she does hers and you do yours. We are expected to defend our faith. We are and have been attempting to do that.

It appears from your comments on Candy's blog that you agree with the things she says about the Catholic Church. Do you believe what she is saying about the Catholic Church is true?

Sallie said...

So, it is ok for her to tell lies about me but I can't call her on it because that is disrespectful? I do not understand...

Elena said...

What lie did I tell about you Sallie. i copied and pasted exactly what you said on my blog. What part do you think I got wrong?

Erika S. said...

Sallie- I do not know where she lied please explain.

Sallie said...

The link I liked to is not accurate, and as I said, I thought it was interesting reading and like people to see and read for themselves. Also, I have been accused of being unfriendly and making false accusations. That is not true. And I didn't curse at Elena in any emails either but I got it in mine. Of course, anyone can manipulate emails anyway they want for forwarding or copying and pasting so I know no one would believe me on that because Elana is a sweet person who doesn't do anything wrong except stand up quietly for her beliefs.

Ya'll are saying you want to be fair and everything but your just happily throwing all the junk at me you want. Ya'll confuse me.. Oh, and nominating someone for an obnoxious blogger award is so very Christlike. Next, it'll be nominated cause I dared to ask how it was Christlike...

aine said...

Being outed as a religious bigot can be a real pain in the wazoo. Just saying.

Elena, keep up the good work.

aine said...

I would like to go on record as saying I never in a million years have thought of Elena as quiet. Really.

Faithful Catholic said...

Sallie,

I am totally confused about what happened between you and Elena. I read what she posted at your site at the same time I posted my comment to you. It did not seem offensive to me in any way. I don't know what happened after that because I don't know what your or her emails said. All I know is that when I went back to your blog, her comment was gone. I'm not even going to try to understand it because it truly sounds like a big misunderstanding and nothing is gained by me sticking my big nose into it.

However, I would appreciate it if you would answer my question. Do you believe that what Candy says about the Catholic Church is true?

Sallie said...

I do not know enough to know whether it is true or not. That is why I said for people to read and look at the Bible for themselves. I thought the article was interesting. I didn't say it was perfect and great in every aspect. I am trying to study and find out about many denominations for myself but the "compassion and love" I have seen towards me doesn't leave a sweet taste in my mouth. Thankfully the Words of the Lord do.

Faithful Catholic said...

Well, Sallie, I'm sorry that you are not feeling compassion and love. Can you understand what it must feel like to have someone who claims to follow Christ constantly lie about your faith and beliefs in spite of the fact that she has been given in love, evidence that what she writes is untrue and yet, she persists in writing it?

You know, we are all human and we have feelings, too!

If you don't know for sure whether or not what she's saying is true or false, don't you think it's unwise to encourage her to post it, knowing what you've read about those lies here? Do you think we are lying when we refute the statements she makes? What would we possibly have to gain by doing that? For crying out loud, it is very easy to establish who is correct here and who is in error. We have a bit more experience with this doctrine seeing as how many of us have been raised in it for more years than Candy has been alive and others have studied it at length and in detail before deciding whether or not to embrace it.

This does not need to be some "us vs. them" argument. We can all believe whatever we choose. Sallie, nobody here, that I can remember, has ever denigrated any other form of Christianity or any other faith or religion either for that matter. If I'm wrong, please make me aware. I'm not in the habit of doing that, believe it or not.

Do you honestly believe that Candy is truly trying to point out the error of our ways? If so, why does she refuse, absolutely refuse to use the actual doctrine to do it? It makes absolutely no sense, plain and simple, no sense.

Sallie said...

Would it not be better then to take these posts and break them down with point by point reference to scripture than to have post titles like visits to candyland or the sallie event? If it isn't true then show me in the BIBLE. I have not seen apologetics at this blog. I did see your latest post at yours and liked how you did that.

I have linked to many things in my blog. That is my choice when I read blogs that interest me. I have probably 10 links just from the weekend through today. That's what bloggers do. They link.

Erika S. said...

Sallie-
"If it isn't true then show me in the BIBLE.” “I have not seen apologetics at this blog"

*-All of my posts except for the post today HAVE BEEN APOLOGETICS. I have tried faithfully to stay above the fray and to only post about the Catholic Faith but today I thought I needed to get some things off my chest and defend a sister in Christ.
Please go back and read ALL of my posts and you will find my above statement to be true! If not please comment about which posts I have written that are not purely an explanation of my faith.

*-if you feel like learning about Catholicism in Scripture please go to http://www.scripturecatholic.com/
They provide in depth Scripture references for the beliefs of Catholic Doctrine.

*- I am sorry that you feel that Elena has lied about you. As “faithful catholic” said we do not know what happened between you in your private emails but as I do not know you and do know Elena I lean toward believing her as we have developed a friendship over the last couple of months and again I have found her to be high spirited and opinionated and sometimes quite frank and that may seem snarky but I do not think that it is meant to be that way. Frankness coming from woman directed at woman sometimes is interpreted as rude and snarky when said woman is just trying to be straight forward. Please understand we are all human. We all make mistakes. We all lose our cool sometimes. Please forgive anyone who has offended you and if they do not repeat it let it go.
With Candy, she is repeatedly told she is spreading falsehoods but does not stop thus we here at this blog have not let it go.

Sallie said...

Thank you for the link to look at Erika. I will look at it and read through it. I did go back and look and found some scripture but also just plain venting and bashing. I didn't look at the names and so I don't know who posted which ones. Even you would have to admit that this is not solely an apolegetics blog.

When I say scripture also I mean only the Bible. I do not follow creeds or catechisms because they are written by men. I'm not saying things in them aren't good but I believe God wants us to search His word and hide it in our hearts.

It's fine for you to believe in your friend and I understand loyalty. I invite you to look over my posts in my blog since 2004 and find out the type of person I am.

I don't believe I will be back here though. It just doesn't do my spirit good and I don't want to get in the middle of your debates anymore than I already have...

Elena said...

That is not true. And I didn't curse at Elena in any emails either but I got it in mine. Of course, anyone can manipulate emails anyway they want for forwarding or copying and pasting so I know no one would believe me on that because Elana is a sweet person who doesn't do anything wrong except stand up quietly for her beliefs.

Wow Sallie. I have to bow to the master. This is simply brilliant I'm sort of damned if I do and damned if I don't now. I never cursed you. If I can prove I never cursed at you, then obviously I doctored the e-mails! You have me check mated anyway I want to go.

Lesson learned the hard way!


Proverbs 4
14 Do not set foot on the path of the wicked
or walk in the way of evil men.

15 Avoid it, do not travel on it;
turn from it and go on your way.

16 For they cannot sleep till they do evil;
they are robbed of slumber till they make someone fall.

Elena said...

I invite you to look over my posts in my blog since 2004 and find out the type of person I am.

I hold the same invitation. Celebrating my 4th blogiversary the end of November at www.mydomesticchurch.blogspot.com

unknown anon said...

Well, I tried to post earlier, but it was during the time that Blogger was down.

I am the anonymous poster from Sallie's blog, the one who posed the question. Sallie has conveniently deleted the "conversation" we had following. The ones where she accused me of "complaining" and "looking for a fight."

I said, in the course of that series of posts, that I was sad about her decision to not answer questions publicly, and that I had know this was her policy, I would not have bothered asking. I specifically said that I was hoping to find common ground. The response from Sallie was to delete all but the original question and her invitation (seeingly ignored) to discuss things through email.

I finally realized that though I was not looking for a fight, any questions were PERCEIVED as antagonistic, simply by virtue of BEING questions.

So, Sallie, you can continue to carry the offense you have created in your own mind. In so doing, I fear that your heart will further be hardened to those who do wish to find common ground, and who look only to be understood. Believing lies only begets more....and the cycle continues.

Faithful Catholic said...

Sallie,

Thank you for answering my question and thank you for reading my post. I have to say that I have many, many times seen Elena and possibly Erika and Kelly do the same thing I did which was post all of what Candy wrote and go through and insert our own comments about her statements. This is where I got the idea. To me it makes it easier to try to address each point that way.

Anyway, I've said before that I believe that our differences in belief basically stem from different interpretations of the Scriptures. Catholics, for the most part, interpret scripture within the framework of the magisterium. We believe that our Sacred Tradition goes hand in hand with Sacred Scripture and ensures that our interpretation of the Word is consistent with Jesus' Truth. Sacred Tradition is an equal part of our doctrine. Sacred Tradition is every bit as true as Sacred Scripture. God handed it down to His Church specifically so that His teachings could be safeguarded and maintained without being open to erroneous interpretation or being added to or taken away from or revised in error. We know that our bishops and the pope, who remain in a direct line of succession to the actual apostles, under the power of the Holy Spirit continue to teach Jesus, teach THE Word of God.

I am well aware that most non-Catholic Christians reject most if not all of our Tradition and believe that our doctrine is man-made and that we have forsaken Scripture and many other things. Believe me when I say that I understand that people don't share our belief and that it's fine by me. I don't think I'm any better or any worse than anyone else regardless of what differences in faith separate us. I do believe our doctrine is true. I could go through and document for you all of these things and how and where they are stated or supported in Scripture. That would take a very long time as there is much to learn. I could also go through and answer specific questions you have about specific issues, if you'd like. Alternatively, I could point you toward even better sources written by people much more learned and articulate than I am. I don't know that you would even be interested, which is fine by me. I'm not trying to convert you.

If you leave here and don't come back, please take this with you and believe it as I offer it in truth and in love: Regardless of what you think of our doctrine, agree or disagree, understand that many, many Catholics feel such a love and appreciation for our faith and our Church because all of our rituals, practices, prayers, creeds, sacraments, our music, our statues, our artwork our vestments, our churches, our "smells and bells" our "pew aerobics", our saints and angels, our feast days, all of it has one single solitary goal and that is to bring us into communion with our Lord, Jesus Christ, our Savior together with God the father and the Holy Spirit. Ours is a very rich and wonderful faith and I would not leave it for anything in this world. I don't know all there is to know about our faith and I've been Catholic all my life which is coming on fifty years. Still, I feel like a baby on the learning curve. I'll tell you, every new thing I learn makes me love the Lord even more. It truly is perfect. But of course, you would agree I'm sure that the Lord does not make mistakes. There is only one thing that could ever be better than receiving the Real Presence of our Lord in the Eucharist and that will be meeting Him and being with Him in heaven for all eternity. I have hope that day will come. Pray for me, please, as I pray for you.

May the love and peace of our Lord, Jesus Christ be with you always.

Blondie said...

Sallie, the purpose of this blog is to correct Candy's lies and deceptions about Catholicism that she posts all over her blog, since she allows no dialogue between herself and Catholics. It is to EXPLAIN the TRUE Catholic teachings, regardless of whether or not you or anyone else agrees with it. If you don't agree with Catholic doctrine, fine; if you don't agree with Catholic interpretation of Scripture, fine. But you should at least KNOW what TRUE Catholic doctrine is before you decide to disagree. You will not learn the truth from Candy.

If Candy would allow Catholics to teach her WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ACTUALLY TEACHES, instead of what people like Jack Chick or Lorraine Boettner says it teaches, then there would be no reason for this blog.

Perplexity said...

Sallie, the purpose of this blog is to correct Candy's lies and deceptions about Catholicism that she posts all over her blog, since she allows no dialogue between herself and Catholics. It is to EXPLAIN the TRUE Catholic teachings, regardless of whether or not you or anyone else agrees with it. If you don't agree with Catholic doctrine, fine; if you don't agree with Catholic interpretation of Scripture, fine.

This, I believe, is where the biggest difference lies between what is happening here and what happens at Candy's blog. Candy posts falsities and claims them as truths, with no verification and absolutely no knowledge. She insults Catholics and other's who don't believe in or follow her form of Christianity. This blog, however, simply states what it IS that Catholics ACTUALLY believe, what they do, and why they do it. Period. They do not claim non-Catholics are wrong, they do not insult their intelligence or beliefs or ways of life, and they do not play petty games by personally attacking anyone who disagrees.

One does not have to agree with religious practices in order to respect them, and those who practice. It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

If one is going to go on the attack against someone or something, the best way to do that and hold credibility is to know what you are talking about. Candy does not; she uses her own version of reality to continually insult Catholics and their beliefs. In the real world, she'd be blown off the podium for her lack of research and valid resources of information. And, what's worse, is she continues to do it, over and over and over, no matter how often she is shown that her information is NOT true of the Catholic religion. She refuses to see that she does not know what she is talking about.

So, this blog came into existence in order to refute her false accusations and claims. I have not seen anyone here personally insult anyone else, including Sallie. I think, Sallie, that you wanted to jump on a bandwagon, or something. There is nothing else to support your constant insults and victim claims.

People do not have to agree on all details or logistics in order to share a common goal. As I said, it is not that hard of a concept to grasp.