Tuesday, April 8, 2008

Codifying the Vatican vs. God essay

The full Vatican Vs. God Rebuttal is complete:
We answered all of Candy's points with links to scripture, outside sources and quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Now just a brief note. When the catechism was first approved by Pope John Paul II, he wrote:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.

This is THE source for understanding what the Catholic church teaches and Catholics believe. Please keep that in mind when looking at Candy's sources, or lack thereof.

I'm a medical records clerk at heart and probably a librarian by nature - so it's helpful for me to add numbers to lists and points etc. With that in mind I thought I would distill Candy's article down to its basic points and then we can tell which rebuttal goes with which point! Candy tackled a lot of points in this essay (she said she put quite a bit of time into it!) so I think it deserves to be taken on
Let us find out if what the Vatican says matches what God tells us in His Holy Word - the Holy Bible:

1. Salvation for the Muslims apparently. Answered here and here.

2. Sacred Tradition (although interestingly, Candy DID NOT give any references from the catechism. Her scriptural defenses are Mark 7:13 and Col. 2:8

Kelly handled that one aptly here.

3. The canonization of saints. Again no CCC references but she notes the canonization dates of St. Marguerite Bourgeoys, and St. Jeanne Delanoue. She gives an article for the canonization process from Catholic Pages.
The gist of her argument is that ALL saints go through this 6-step process to become a saint. (She apparently doesn't know about All Saints Day!) Her back up scripture is Cor 6:2 and 1 Col 1:2 as well as Rev 14:12. We haven't tackled this one yet.

Updated: We handle this one here.

4. The Vatican repeatedly calls their pope "Holy Father."
God says - And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Matthew 23:9
We haven't tackled this one yet.
Update: This one is easily taken apart here.

5. Vatican says - "The members of the Rosary Sodality, therefore, do exceedingly well in weaving together, as in a crown, so many salutations and prayers to Mary." reference 5

What God says - After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. -Matthew 6:9
OK so does this mean Candy ONLY says the Our Father?

We have oodles of stuff on the rosary here, here and here.

6. Candy also uses this passage which we have not dealt with yet:
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer [necromancy - the black art of speaking to the dead]. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Deuteronomy 8:10-12

It deserves it's own point.
UPDATE: Kelly takes that on and handles it here!

7. Vatican says - "Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself "in the middle," that is to say she acts as a mediatrix [mediator] not as an outsider, but in her position as mother." reference 6

What God says - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; -1 Timothy 2:5

UPDATE: Kelly handles that here.

Vatican says - "After a short pause for reflection, recite the "Our Father", ten "Hail Marys" and the "Glory be to the Father". reference 7

God says - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. -Matthew 6:7

Handled here and here.

8. Vatican says - [Catholics have a different set of 10 commandments than the ones God gave us in the Bible] "1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me. 2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain. 3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day. 4. Honor your father and your mother. 5. You shall not kill. 6. You shall not commit adultery. 7. You shall not steal. 8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods." reference 8

God says - 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them; for I the Lord they God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, nor they son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor they maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. 6. Thou shalt not kill. 7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. 8. Thou shalt not steal. 9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. -Exodus 20:3-17

We hit this one out of the ball park! See here and here.

9. More issues with Mary:
Vatican says - "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." - The Roman Catholic version of Genesis 3:15 Reference - The Roman Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible

God says - [Note: It is undisputed in Christian circles that Genesis 3:15 is the first biblical Messianic prophecy.] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it [the seed of the woman] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. We haven't tackled this one yet either.

UPDATE: Handled here.

It appears then that the points we still need to handle are 3, 4, 6, 7 and 9.

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Kelly said...

Sounds great, that's give us something to do this week! ;)

Tracy said...

Good job Elena!!!

kritterc said...

This is absolutely wonderful!! I have added it to my blog site. I think we should all make a serious effort to pray for Candy's conversion. Nothing is impossible!! Can't wait for the next round. Peace and Blessings.

kritterc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tracy said...

Amen Kritterc, I agree and I already pray for Candy to have her heart opened to the truth and now I will also pray for her conversion. Nothing is impossible with God!!

faithful catholic said...

Wow, Elena! You've been very busy. Great posts! I can hardly keep up with the reading. I have to admit I'm not really feeling very charitable about this stuff. I'm working on a post for my blog but, I've not published it yet because as it stands, the working title is "The Whore of Babble On"

Tracy said...

lol, faithful that is too funny!!

Blondie said...

FC, that is a great play on words, and so!!!!

Erika S. said...

I'm with FC on this one. The last charitable bone in my body concerning CB has left the building! I pray that it will come back and maybe I will post then but for now I will wait.