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Friday, April 18, 2008

The melt down

Coffeybean Family: Clarification

I had frisked this but then blogger ate all my hard work. So just read it for now. I'll have comments later.


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41 comments:

Erika S. said...

All I can say is WOW. There are so many things wrong with her statement that I do not even know where to begin. It is so full of emotion, misinformation, accusation (which according to her is the hand of Satan) & illogical thought that all I can say is WOW!

She is actually doing what she is saying NOT to do! Attacking people personally.
She claims to not want to stir up trouble but isn't that exactly what she is doing?

Maggii said...

The thing that really gets to me is her comment that all Non-Catholics feel about Catholicism the way Candy does? Really? I surely hope not...that is the thing that shocks me the most about some of the stuff I see over at Candy's blog..I never realized ANYONE felt that way about us...up until a couple years ago I didn't realize there were actually some groups who felt we really aren't Christian...I mean yeah..I knew we had slightly differing beliefs...but thought we all agreed on Christianity. After fibnding Candy's blog it really makes me question my Protestant 'friends' and wonder if some of them feel the same as well????

Tracy said...

My hubby comes from a Lutheran family and I guarantee they don't feel this way and I have many friends who are Methodist as well as Presbyterian and we have had some awesome discussions and they also don't feel this way... hmmm....something smells fishy, lol!!

Nancy Parode said...

Well, I feel it's kind of pointless to argue over on Melissa's blog - IMHO, she'll see that as evidence of further attacks - so I will make my point here.

I've had Protestant friends who were told Catholics were going to 7734 (remember the old calculator-upside-down game?) by pastors. I've had Protestant friends become totally confused when I ask them why some members of their church (whom I heard speak on the topic) believe Catholics "worship idols, like the Hindus," and assure me that they, the friends, don't think that at all.

I don't think Melissa or anyone else can look at the entire global Protestant population and declare that most people in that group thing anything at all. How would we know?

What I do think is that Melissa got one thing totally right - we should all be respectful of each other's beliefs. I don't believe Candy is trying to do that - why on earth would a respectful person compare anyone's church to a fallen woman? I also know full well that Melissa is not Candy, and somehow Melissa seems to feel, or at least I am reading that she feels, very caught up in the ongoing discussions and comments that involve Candy's blog. (Hence, my decision not to comment on Melissa's blog. She has stated her opinion. I'm stating mine here to keep the discussion over here.)

If Melissa ever does read this comment, I hope she will understand that I, personally, have never, ever compared anyone else's faith - even paganism - to prostitution or Dagon-worshipping; nor, Heaven forbid, have I ever, ever called the spiritual head of any faith group an anti-Christ. I know Melissa did not do this, either, but Candy and some of her readers have, indeed, done so. If I am somehow at fault for resenting the bizarre and untrue analogies used by others, I'd like to know why.

For the record, I have had friends and colleagues from almost every possible faith background, from mainstream Protestant denominations to pagans and Jehovah's Witnesses. I would never presume to tell them that their faiths are wrong or Satanic or anything else. I prefer to live the Gospel and, God willing, show people that the Catholic faith brings me joy and peace. When people get the facts wrong about the Catholic faith, I feel equally compelled to state what Catholics really believe.

Milehimama said...

I just tried the link and it's gone.

Did anyone screen shot it?

Milehimama said...

That is, the entire BLOG is gone, not just the post!

Tracy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
motherofmany said...

Nancy,

You stated that you would never tell someone their beliefs are wrong, including pagans and Jevohva's Witnesses. While I would not think it wise for anyone to use such a statement as you would be immediately turning people off frm whatever you had to say afterward, I am puzzled. If you agree that Jesus is the only way to heaven, then obviously their faith is wrong, and it is your duty to lovingly turn them in the right direction, is it not? We are told in the Bible to go into all the world and preach the gospel, and that if we turn someone away from their sins we have helped save them. I think that is where just living the truth looks to the world as acceptance of the 'many avenues'.

Nancy Parode said...

Motherofmany,

You're right, it is my duty to help people find their way to Christ.

I've found, though, that for me the best way to do that is to let my faith shine forth (at least, I hope it shines...) in my daily life. I talk about my own faith in daily conversation, too - and often people ask me about it. Then, I feel that they are ready to listen.

I guess what I was trying to say is that I am not the confrontational type. For me, it is not effective to tell people how wrong their beliefs are. I do much better when people say to me something like, "You know, I saw the Pope on TV and I don't understand why he wears that hat. Do you know why?" and I can answer. They know they can ask me because it's obvious that I am Catholic (I wear a St. Brigid's cross, I have Catholic art in my home, etc.).

I know, too, that this is not everyone's way to preach the Gospel. As St. Paul says, there are many gifts, but the same Spirit - I hope that I am using my gifts in God's service in the way He intends me to.

Thanks for asking me to clarify; I hope this better explains what I was trying to say.

EmilyC said...

I'm not Nancy, but I took what she said as she would rather show her faith first, then do like what Candy does, and hammer someone with things like, "you're going to burn in hell if you don't find Jesus!"

I was raised Jewish, and believe me, I did NOT appreciate people like Candy growing up. I had many "well meaning" people inform me of the fact that because I hate Jesus (first, please tell me where any Jew has said they HATE Jesus??) I would be burning in hell. I would just smile and get far, far away from them. That's the wrong way to evangelize.

I once had an incident where a group of friends were sitting around discussing religion. It was a Catholic girl, a Southern Baptist girl, a Mormon and me, a Jew. We were having a lovely discussion about the differences/similarities in our faiths when the SB girl says,(with a smile, and in love I assume) Catholics are going to hell because they worship idols and changed the bible, Mormons are going to hell because they worship false prophets and altered the bible, and Jews are going to hell because they rejected Jesus and took away from the bible. The rest of us were just dumbfounded. Again, wrong way to evangelize.

Now, flash forward about 6 years. I see that my IL's have this amazing faith. I see them go to church, and they just seem to glow. I wanted to know what they had, and why it was so great. They never once EVER asked me to go to church with them, or even brought up the idea of it. I went to a Christmas mass and it was wonderful. They showed me their faith without hammering into me that I NEEDED to find Jesus. I found him without all of that, just by seeing him in them.

Perplexity said...

Rather dramatic, and for what?

It was doing exactly what it was supposedly arguing against. I find it amusing, in a sad sort of way.

I do, however, hope she finds what she is looking for and that the dramatic pulling of her blog has served its intended purpose.

motherofmany said...

I understand the point of people seeing your life and the evidence of your faith by that. My question was, though, if you never make it clear that you believe Jesus is the only way, and then people see and misunderstand things like the Pope and Ahmadinejad both calling for religios unity. Only those who have a very close understanding of the inner workings and conversations would say they mean an understanding to agree to disagree. Most people see that as a call to either unite all religions or at least validate all religions as equal means to an end. Just like perplexity's bumper sticker- while the intent may be to get people to coexist without fighting, the impression I get from that statement is that we are supposed to then see all faiths as equal and accept not only the person but alos validate their religioud traditions.

I have personally never been party to someone witnessing by saying immediately and forcefully that the person is going to hell. I have never done anything like that myself, and I did get involved in the debates in high school. I would have brought up scriptures to show why others feel a certain belief is wrong, and that may be taken by the person as an attack because they feel they must now be on the defensive, but it was never done in a way that would truly be called attacking or condemning. Since it is the Holy Spirit that convicts, it makes no sense to be forceful or accusatory when witnessing.

Sue Bee said...

How ironic that after pestering someone into giving up her blog you jump right into a discussion on how effect it is to be a silent witness.

Tracy said...

Actually Sue, some have posted that they prefer to be a silent witness but not all, we are called to stand up for our faith and each of us must decide how we want to do that, there is no right or wrong way, one may choose to be a silent witness, one may choose to be more vocal. I don't think you read all the posts.

Blondie said...

Could someone recap what Coffee-Bean posted because I totally missed it. Must have been quite controversial.

Tracy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sue Bee said...

I don't think you read all the posts.

Odd coming from you, Tracy, who just posted:

"It is gone, I never did try to even read what she wrote.. why bother??
I know its full of ignorance as usual.. "


Agape at its finest?

Tracy said...

Sue, Sue, Sue.. did you not read my post???? I said that each of us must witness in our own way.. while my way is not to post on someone else's blog.. that does not mean I don't think others don't have that right.. if people have a blog and don't want certain posts on it all you do is put on post moderation... I don't feel I need to witness on another persons blog when we have this awesome blog to post on... BUT.. if someone else feels they are being called to say something on that persons blog.. so be it... lol.. you really are not getting what I am saying at all!!

Tracy said...

Also.. just cause I'm interested in reading what she said does not mean I will post at her blog.. nope.. I'll do it here if I feel the need but I won't bother her at her own blog.. but that is just how I feel.. do we have that clear enough?

Kelly said...

Well, I have no idea what it said, because I've been doing real life stuff, and it's gone now.

Sue Bee, I've gotta say, I'm waiting for you to float like a butterfly, now that we know how well you can sting! ;)

I saw two people posting about being a silent witness. Neither is Elena, whom, I assume, is who you feel pestered Melissa into giving up her blog.

While calling someone "ignorant" can be an insult, sometimes it is just the correct word to use:

1.lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2.lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3.uninformed; unaware.
4.due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

I have found Melissa to be generally lacking in knowledge, unlearned, uninformed, and unaware of Catholic doctrine. I find Candy to be so as well.

But I have to agree with Sue Bee a bit in general. There are 19 posts on this thread at the moment. I can spend an hour on a post explaining a Catholic theological concept and get crickets chirping! (Okay, that's not true. Usually Traci and one or two other people will give me positive feedback. I appreciate that.)

Why can't everyone get this worked up about discussing ideas instead of discussing people?

Elena said...

The most controversial part of the post that I feel is worth discussion is the statement that MOST Protestants feel the way Candy does (a statement that I feel is not supportable).

Clearly most Americans (including President Bush and John McCain) do NOT seem to share any of Candy's opinions of Catholicism. I think subscribers to that particular way of thinking are not as common as Melissa or Candy might think.

Kelly said...

I think subscribers to that particular way of thinking are not as common as Melissa or Candy might think.

Well, everyone at their church feels that way, so everyone who isn't Catholic must feel that way, right? ;)

motherofmany said...

It might help to remember, too, that many fundamentalists and Baptists/Bible churches do not consider themselves in the same group as more 'orthodox' churches (Lutheran, Episcopalian, Methodist, etc.). So when she says most protestants, she is likely not considering those churches.

Sal said...

Blondie:
It was nothing really new:
1) Candy has the right to post whatever she wants about the Church on her blog.
2) If you check up on her blog and correct her or write about her, you're mean, unchristian and stirring up trouble.

and the part that had us all puzzled, until MoM explained it:

3) Everyone agrees with us that you Catholics are wrong.

Elena said...

She was actually even more parochial than that, citing "all the churches" she had ever visited as opining with Candy - and thus apparently, "most Protestants."

Erika S. said...

Sue Bee- How on earth did any of us pester her into giving up her blog? She can write what she wants, that is fine with me but as I have stated before, she must take the response to her statements. I have the right as an American to say what I believe, as does she, but we both have the right to respond to what the other has said. If she was so insecure in her statement then I pose maybe she should not have written it in the first place.
I am so sick of people playing the "good girl", we are victims and I just can't take it anymore game. If you make bold statements then at least have the courage to stand behind your words!

Erika S. said...

Kelly- I love your posts on theology! Please know that I totally appreciate them and always enjoy reading them. :)

Perplexity said...

Kelly, your posts teach me so much and I appreciate reading them. Since I usually take a while to thoroughly understand things though, since this all about learning to me, I don't generally comment. I digest and look into things, and by the time I grasp it or formulate questions everyone else has moved on.

Trust me though, I read every one of them and I learn from them and I appreciate them.

Not just yours, Kelly, but everyone's posts about the Catholic faith.

Elena said...

Kelly - you rock!

and the search engines love you too!!

Sue Bee said...

I did read all of coffeybean's post before she took her blog down. It was rather long and rambling. She sounded frazzled. Apparently someone had accused her of hating Catholics and she stated she does not hate Catholics and has Catholic friends. She was getting too many comments and she could see by her IP tracker that you were checking her blog over and over and over.

She was asking you to leave her alone.

But you didn't.

There was nothing in that post overtly about catholicism but you "frisked" her anyway.

And yes, I did read all of the posts here before I commented and I stand by what I said.

Calling someone ignorant is derogatory no matter how you try to spin it.

Maggii said...

I spoke with Melissa over at Coffee Bean in e-mail right after she closed it. It was a pleasant exchange. Although she didn't back down on her opinion, she spoke to me with respect and I appreciate that. She did assure me that closing her blog was not due to people here bombarding her. So I don't think anyone pestered her into giving it up. She had stated in previous posts that she felt she was spending too much time on the computer and wanted to cut back and spend more time with her family etc. I think that is why she closed it. As a matter of fact that is what she pretty much told me, and I am inclined to believe her.

Elena said...

It's worth noting too that on blogger, authors have the ability to set their blog to PRIVATE and simply not leave it open to the general public. That's an option as well.

Look, open blogging is not for everyone. And not everyone likes to deal with controversy (although honestly Melissa had been around the block on this before). To each his own.

The solution to that is not have a controversial blog OR don't post about controversial topics AND don't give big thumbs up on other blogs that post on controversial topics.

It's really not that tough to figure out.

Elena
Who admits to being woefully ignorant and inept on the topics of on Chinese culture, calligraphy and origami.

Elena said...

oh and Sue - if you READ my first statement carefully you will see that my long, well thought out, logical, respectful "frisk" to Melissa never made it out of blogger hell. I hit SEND and a error message popped up! The frisk was to appear on this blog and it never showed.

Now take it down a notch or two.

Nancy Parode said...

Sue Bee,

I didn't pester Melissa, and I didn't advocate "silent" witnessing, but witnessing through actions and then discussing faith as people ask about it. I didn't say that's what everyone has to do, either.

In fact, I didn't comment on Melissa's last post on her blog, but here, particularly so that she would not think I was attacking her.

And, I did see Melissa's post and read it through a couple of times before she took her blog down. She did indeed state that most non-Catholics feel the way Candy does about Catholicism. I, personally, feel that statement was a generalization that neither Melissa nor anyone else could support with facts. (If they could, why have we not seen poll data to that effect in articles related to the Holy Father's visit?)

Please note that I do not write this blog. I comment here and read some of the blogs that this one references.

Nancy Parode said...

Motherofmany,

I do try to confront people - with a smile - when they have misperceptions about the Catholic faith. After the "Catholics worship idols, just like the Hindus" incident, I promised myself I'd never let a statement like that go by me without a prompt and direct response again. (Hence my mostly unsuccessful attempts to comment on Candy's blog.)

I think that my approach works for me...I can't say how many people have changed opinions about the Catholic faith because of me, as I don't know for sure, but I do know that my husband and sister-in-law were not Catholic when I met them, and they are now. I've been asked many times about Mary and the saints - you should see all the saint holy cards in my kitchen! - so I assume that my devotion to my saintly friends gets noticed. I'm happy to be able to explain the truth about Catholicism, Mary and the saints at any time.

I know from other life experiences that God has ways of prodding me onto His pathway, so I hope I will be able to notice His direction if I'm not doing things according to His plan for me. (Perhaps that's something I should pray more about, too.)

Kelly said...

Okay guys, you're making me blush! I wasn't fishing for compliments.

I guess what I was trying to say, is that I would love it if some of our non-Catholic posters, say, unashamed or saved sinner, would just in on some of the theology posts and say "Oh, that's interesting, because we believe this and that."

Or if you're Sue Bee, you could say "I see the argument that you're trying to make, but I don't buy it. People don't bow down to the Washington Monument!" (I love Sue Bee's blog, so I hope that means I'm allowed to tease her.)

I've been tossing around the idea to doing a series on the first chapters of Luke, because a lot of the basis for our Marian doctrines is there. I wondered if Candy chose John instead of Luke for that reason, actually.

So you guys can redeem yourselves there, because I'm particularly interested in the modern Lutheran stance on various Marian doctrines, as Luther believed in the Immaculate Conception, etc., himself.

Sue Bee said...

Just to get the final word in :-)

Do all non-catholics share Candy's opinions on Roman Catholics? Absolutely not. Not even close.

Do non-catholic churches preach against Roman Catholicism? In the Lutheran Church our pastors preach the gospel, I have never encountered any preaching against any denomination. The only time I recall the RCC mentioned is on Reformation Sunday when the story of the reformation is retold.

BUT, during Bible Study discussions of other denominations sometimes does take place, as in "Such-and-Such Church views this passage to mean This-or-That, which is clearly erroneous because...." The other church being discussed may be RCC or Baptist or LDS or Pentecostal or JW or Methodist etc etc. The RCC isn't singled out as the only offender.

I hope that clears up any misinformation that may be floating around out there.

Sue Bee said...

Oh, and one more thing--

Kelly, I love your posts too! You can be counted on to be thoughtful and insightful. Thank you for visiting & commenting as often as you do.

Milehimama said...

I have heard Catholicism preached against from the pulpit at Calvary Chapel churches and Baptist churches in NM and TX. Also at a Rhema church in TX.

Where it really gets bad are the bible studies/more individual fellowships.

Milehimama said...

Although, I did *once* hear a pastor endorse the "Immaculate Conception" because Jesus was without sin...

Talk about misinformation! LOL

Maggii said...

Unfortunately there are even Catholics that don't realize the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary's conception not Jesus's ....I have had to correct my share of Catholics on that one.