The quote you gave from St. Germanus isn't complete, so I can't understand the context, but I will tell you that I don't believe and don't know any other Catholic that says we receive our salvation through Mary. We receive that through Jesus Christ alone. I just can't help but believe that Jesus would be heartbroken by people thinking of his dear mother as only a "vessel." I think of her with great love and respect as I would my best friend's mother.
I wasn't trying to stir up an argument- I know we differ big-time on how we view the Catholic Church (which is not a cult by the way). I have been pretty offended by some of your claims, but I have continued to read your blog because I admire the way you joyfully live out your vocation of motherhood. I am a mother of five and am always looking for ways I can do my job better because I still have so much to learn. Surrounding myself with the right people and good information helps a lot.
Differences aside, I believe the Lord loves all of us, and I hope it's ok with you if I continue to visit your blog.
Good job, Angie, on catching that incomplete quote! A very gracious response.
Angie, if you believe that you receive salvation through faith in Christ alone, than by your own church writings (such as the council of Trent) you are anathema.
It sounds to me like you should try out a Christian church instead of a Roman Catholic one. You may find that you have more in common there.
I noticed that Angie didn't actually say she believed her salvation was through faith in Christ alone, but through Christ alone.
Candy brings up the idea of anathema, which always seems to get people riled up. An anathema is a form of what we would call today, excommunication. This is based on Scripture, specifically what St. Paul wrote in Galatians 1:8–9 and 1 Corinthians 16:22.
I would again, point you to This Rock, which has a very informative article on anathema, and explains why Angie would not be anathema for her views.
The anathemas of Trent and other councils were like most penalties of civil law, which only take effect through the judicial process. If the civil law prescribes imprisonment for a particular offense, those who commit it do not suddenly appear in jail. Likewise, when ecclesiastical law prescribed an anathema for a particular offense, those who committed it had to wait until the judicial process was complete before the anathema took effect.
6. Anathemas applied to all Protestants. The absurdity of this charge is obvious from the fact that anathemas did not take effect automatically. The limited number of hours in the day by itself would guarantee that only a handful of Protestants ever could have been anathematized. In practice the penalty tended to be applied only to notorious Catholic offenders who made a pretense of staying within the Catholic community.
7. Anathemas are still in place today. This is the single most common falsehood one encounters regarding anathemas in the writings of anti-Catholics. They aren’t in place today. The penalty was employed so infrequently over the course of history that it is doubtful that anyone under an anathema was alive when the new Code of Canon Law came out in 1983, when even the penalty itself was abolished.
8. The Church cannot retract its anathemas. Anti-Catholics love to repeat this falsehood for rhetorical flourish. But again, it isn’t true. The Church is free to abolish any penalty of ecclesiastical law it wants to, and it did abolish this one.
Angie replies to the news that she is anathema in the Catholic Church:
An anathema- I had to look that up in the dictionary, LOL. Spitting venom at me is really unbecoming of you. I was honestly not trying to taunt you Candy. After reviewing my statement, yes, I believe I am saved through Jesus. However, I do also believe that we are to do good works. (James 2:14-26, Romans 6:16-23) Faith and works really go hand in hand. I do also believe that the sacraments bring me closer to God. You don't believe that, but I'm not going to shove my beliefs down your throat. These are my beliefs. Yes, there are a lot of Catholics that are Catholic because they were raised Catholic and haven't learned what they believe. Many are easily swayed into leaving the Church by people such as yourself. But take note, you will NEVER walk into a Catholic Church and hear Protestant-bashing. I make it a point to be educated in what I believe, and I embrace it. If that makes me evil in your eyes, so be it.
Angie, don't get mad at me because I know more of your church teachings than you do. :-(
Umm, yeah . . . Not quite up to date on current canon law, though, is she?
"Spitting venom?" When and where did I do such things?
Notice that I only quoted what YOUR own church says in their holy writings, and compared it to the Bible. If that is spitting venom, then what is love? I didn't call you anathema, YOUR church's own writings refer to you as such, for your faith in Christ alone. They are the ones spitting venom in their writings, not me.
Candy has given only partial quotes, and they came from a rather obscure saint, and a well respected, but not recent, Church council. I have yet to see any quotes from the Catechism, which is generally the standard for theological debates regarding Catholic doctrine.
You would have been killed for your current beliefs by your very own church in England during the middle ages.
And, as I've written before, non-Catholic Christians never killed any Catholics? Killing heretics was a long standing practice on both sides for hundreds of years. I provided some examples in the Whore of Babylon post.
Henry Dunster, the first President of Harvard University, was fired from his position and banished from the colony because he came to believe that infant baptism was not Biblical. So Candy herself, would have been "anathema" to a group of Christians which she has mentioned previously as having similar spiritual principles to her own.
We are saved by faith through the spilt blood of Jesus, and not through Mary, sacraments, the un-biblical pope, the Catholic church, etc. There is no purgatory, either, BTW. That's not mentioned in the Bible once. Furthermore, there is no need for any purgatory.
You can find my post on purgatory, complete with Scripture citations, here. Notice how Candy is now piling on the issues, so that Angie cannot possibly make a reasoned defense of all these doctrines.
When Jesus died on the cross, He said "It is finished!" COMPLETE. No need for purgatory, no intercessions to the saints or Mary to appease an angry God, no sacraments, rites, and rituals - It Is Finished. Priase God! :-D
I'm not spewing hate to you, I am telling you the truth, and I'm pointing out to you that the beliefs you've stated you have are more Christian than Catholic, except the whole sacraments thing.
Angie really hasn't said very much about her beliefs, that I could see.
The works of the saved person are their sanctification in the Lord, it's good works that happen ~automatically~ when a person is truly saved, as they get God's Holy Spirit literally indwelling them, and they are to walk by the Spirit, not by the flesh. Romans 8 and Galatians chapter 5 explains this beautifully.
As Catholics, we believe that if we truly have faith, we will do good works. Works and faith are inseparable. This seems to be what Candy believes as well. Would Candy not agree that if someone said they were saved, but did not change their lifestyle, and start reading the Bible, then they probably are not really saved?
Therefore, a sanctified Christian wouldn't have any church doctrine to follow in order to do their good works. They are to listen to God and walk in the Spirit, not follow a rote list, or repeat "hail Mary full of grace" while holding a rosary. None of that is in the Bible sweety, you've been duped. :-(
Actually, I think "hail Mary full of grace" IS in the Bible.
No, I have't bashed you, or spewed any venom at you whatsoever. I have simply laid out the truth on the table.
You are offended, that is your fault, not mine.
If I disliked you, I would keep my mouth shut, and laugh at you that you have been tricked. However, I love you as a Christian ought, so I'm trying to save your eternal life. Take it or leave it. One day you'll know the correct answer. I pray you embrace the truth before it's too late.
PS - You don't hear Catholic bashing in protestant churches either. At least, none that I've ever attended.
What you will hear is someone "telling the Truth." She does not define this as Catholic bashing, as Candy has said before.
As for your statement, I don't know how you can say NO Catholic church bashes protestants, unless you have somehow attended all Catholic churches? It has been historically proven that the RC church used to continually bash protestants during reformation and inquisitions.
I would guess that if Candy is bringing in inquisitions, her definition of protestant bashing is different from her idea of Catholic bashing. Poor Angie now must not only answer for every Catholic Church in existence today, but every sermon ever preached in a Catholic Church, and apparently, inquisitorial trials, too.
Thomas Madden has a very informative article on the Inquisition, in case anyone has any lingering questions about it.
My father in law regularly attends a Roman Catholic church. When my mother in law was alive, she attended with him - in submission to him, but she was not Catholic.
Once or twice a week she attended a Christian church for evening services or Bible study.
She also was KJV only, and had Bible studies with friends over the phone.
She was a saved woman who walked in the Spirit mightily.
Candy's views on the salvation of Catholics seem to evolve continually. For a long while, she felt that Catholics absolutely could not be saved. More lately, she has said that some Catholics may be saved, but they must "come out of her" in order to attain salvation.
Now she offers an example of a person she feels stayed within the Catholic Church, but was saved. Probably because she technically wasn't Catholic, read the King James Bible, and snuck out to Bible studies on occasion. This is really only of minor interest, but I thought the comment worth preserving in case she comes back to this in the future.