“just wanted to somewhat address Angie's comment with a question. As a former Catholic who did and does know the Catechism I want to know why you would think Christ founded the RCC? Where in the Word of God does it say that? Um, Jesus-Jew, Paul-Jew, Peter-Jew ...Messianic phropechy fulfilled.On what Scripture do you base your argument that Jesus found the RCC? I really am interested to know how you think this, and I am not being antagonistic.”
I do understand that you are not being antagonistic but are just looking for why Catholic believe that Jesus founded the Roman Catholic Church. I would like to direct you to Catholic Answers website. You will find an article about this very subject called Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth. This article will hopefully help you to understand the Catholic point of view which is that when Jesus came to earth he established his Church, Matt. 16-18, and the Catholic Church can trace it’s history from that moment.
You might also like to read Church History . If you follow the link please scroll down to section III, Early Church History From Christ up to the Edict of Milan (313), that is the beginning of the part that is relevant to the topic.
I hope this helps.
Thank you for asking in such a gracious manner!
8 comments:
The catechesis in this country is still dismal, I admit. Nonetheless, this is a high school level catechism question that a well-catechized Catholic or ex would know the answer or where to find the answer.
Hello Elena,
I am the one, as you know, that asked the question. It is not a high school level catechism question. As a former well cateshized Catholic I am trying to understand that is all. When I left it was so clear to me . I am going to try and read through Erika's articles she sent to me. Quite frankly, I am sure we will still disagree as I see no evidence of the RCC church in the Bible and I consider that the final authority and believe if God did want us to all be Catholic it would be in there. My decision to leave was very difficult. I was a very involved Catholic my 12 years of Catholic school and stayed in the Convent as I wanted to become a nun. Just because someone leaves does not mean they don't know their RCC catechism, something you have eluded to in a couple of your comments. I have always tried to be respectful in trying to understand why what was so plain to me isn't to others and I will continue to do so . I also think that we may always differ on doctrine and that is okay as far as I am concerned. I do count some of my Catholic friends sisters-in -Christ and we have many lively discussions, all loving. And then again I am still in contact with two wonderful ex-nuns that I had in grade school as well as an ex-priest from my high school years who is now married with a family. So you can imagine the conversations --none of us bash the church at all, we have just all seen flaws in the doctrine of many man made doctrines.
I am the one, as you know, that asked the question. It is not a high school level catechism question.
Hi Suzanne,
Actually it is. I am homeschooling my teen and I have high school religion texts. The origins of the Catholic church with catechism quotes is part of the curriculum. For further info you could check out the Didache series (which is excellent!) Probably pick it up cheaper through Amazon, or Cathswap, possibly eBay.
As a former well cateshized Catholic I am trying to understand that is all. When I left it was so clear to me .
Suzanne, I'm not blaming you. Catechesis in this country for the last 30 years or so has just been dismal! I was a victim of it as well and I often proclaim that I was NOT A WELL CATECHIZED CATHOLIC until around age 30. I know you feel that you were but your question indicates to me that you probably weren't, but again, it's not your fault. I think the bishops in this country have to shoulder a lot of the blame for the past two generations of poorly prepared Catholics.
I am going to try and read through Erika's articles she sent to me. Quite frankly, I am sure we will still disagree as I see no evidence of the RCC church in the Bible and I consider that the final authority and believe if God did want us to all be Catholic it would be in there.
Well it's in there. It may take a major paradigm shift to see it however.
My decision to leave was very difficult. I was a very involved Catholic my 12 years of Catholic school and stayed in the Convent as I wanted to become a nun. Just because someone leaves does not mean they don't know their RCC catechism, something you have eluded to in a couple of your comments.
Most ex-Catholics in my experience did not know or understand their Catholic faith. I have however conceded that some very prominent dissenters did know and left anyway, but usually for moral/lifestyle issues- contraception, abortion, homosexuality, married priests etc. Interestingly, and also in my experience these folks tended to wanted to take their Catholicity with them, but just separate from the authority of their bishops, magesterium and pope. These are of course specific instances. I think the majority leave because they were not fully catechized.
Suzanne,
I second Elena's recommendation of the Didache series. We just finished their scripture study course and it is excellent.
I think it is possible for someone who is well-catechized to leave the Church, although it certainly isn't the most common scenario. I think that the arguments just don't make sense for some people, and Bible Alone can seem a much simpler, more attractive solution.
My Mom was like many in the Baby Boomer generation who received an excellent education in true Catholicism from nuns and the Baltimore Catechism. She can tell me the reasons why we believe everything that we do, but like most Boomers, she found the "if it feels good, do it" and "look out for Number One" slogans of the generation more attractive, and now wishes the Church would "get with the modern times."
I really can't claim to have been catechized at all, as I went to public school my entire education and had religious education for only about 6 years. Self-education is where I have learned what I know now. Certainly, I was never even taught that Jesus established the Catholic Church, much less any Biblical arguments in favor of that position.
My college roommate, who sometimes comments here, had a K-12 Catholic education, from actual nuns. However, in the 80's and 90's she also did not learn much actual Catholic doctrine. A lot of what she was taught was liberal theology, taught as if it were actual doctrine. She thought she was well catechized, after all, she learned at Catholic school, from nuns(!), but she wasn't. Although we still differ in our theological outlook, as I have shared some of what I have learned with her, she feels that the Church doctrines make a lot more sense than she was taught.
Well, guess we will just have to differ. My problem was I was too well catechized to see the Scriptures through any thing but the eyes of the magasterium. The Holy Spirit was all I needed to interpret Scripture and Scripture alone. I am familiar with the Didache series and my problem is that all the books you point to I can't rectify the teachings with the living Word of God. I couldn't 21 years ago and still can't.
"I think that the arguments just don't make sense for some people, and Bible Alone can seem a much simpler, more attractive solution."
A more attractive solution to what?
I don't consider the Bible a more simple or more attractive solution, it is thee Word of God and in its simplicity one finds salvation and all the answers one needs.
I have enjoyed these exchanges but this time on the PC takes me away from the family and more important things as my role as a keeper.
I will just keep living my life for Jesus and continue to hopefully be a light to those that are lost and my wish is for all here to be able to do the same regardless of our differences:-)
Thanks for being respectful to me and I hope I have been the same to you. Take care.
God Bless!
~Suzanne
You're familiar with these? They are chalk full of references directly to the scriptures! They effortlessly "rectify the teachings with the living Word of God."
The Holy Spirit was all I needed to interpret Scripture and Scripture alone.
You're lucky. The Holy Spirit pushed me into study (not easy with a lot of little kids, a house, a job etc) but He never made it easy for me! I never got the gift of an instantaneous understanding of Hebrew or Koine Greek, and I'm still learning about the culture and the subtle meanings of many of the verses. I'll probably still be learning if I make it to 100.
Suzanne- I'm glad you came here to get that answer. I didn't feel that I could respond to you at Candy's blog without her tearing apart my answer. Matthew, chapters 16 and 18, talk about Jesus making Peter the head of his church. BTW, thank you for being respectful to me in a hostile environment.
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