Thursday, June 12, 2008

The latest rant:

No, receiving the Eucharist in the Catholic Mass is not at all receiving Christ. Christians don't believe that some round cracker in a monstrance is the literal body of Jesus, and Christians don't believe that a cup of wine is literally the blood of Jesus. You don't receive Jesus by canabolizing and vampirizing Him every week. Jesus isn't a cracker, nor has He ever been. If you are going to say that Jesus was literally saying that we are to eat and drink Him, then be consistant with your theology. To be consistent in your theology, then you'd also have to conceed that God is a very large bird with feathered wings:

John 6:47-63,66 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum. Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" . . . After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

Well, if your theology says that we are literally to eat and drink Jesus, then God is a giant hen, and no one can possibly become born again as in John 3:16, as that just wouldn't jive.

There are precursors to the Eucharist and the importance it plays in our life throughout the old testament. From Malchezadek to manna, to the passover supper itself, God worked his plan for this special meal throughout history until Christ finally initiated the institution of the Eucharist at the last supper. I find Candy's argument to be very childish and lacking any type of biblical exegesis or understanding.

You said: "And Candy, if I choose to say I want to have faith and put that faith into action in the way I live, who are you to condemn me for it?"

I didn't and don't condemn you. You've ~already been condemened~, by God Himself:

Candy has absolutely no business telling anyone that they are condemned. She does not speak for God. The bible also says: "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

You may have all of the sincerity in the world for your religion, but that still won't get you into heaven. When the end comes, you'll find that you were just sincerely wrong. The truth has been presented here to you, so it's up to you to accept or deny it. I believe that every person in hell will know they are there, because that's what they chose.

You know, I think the same thing about Candy. I guess time will tell.

Also, Protestants didn't take books away from the Bible - the RC church ADDED books to the Bible, of which the Bible specifially says ~not~ to do. :-(

I will refer you to Where We Got the Bible by Graham.
It is true that many Fathers and Doctors and writers of the Church in the first three centuries from time to time mention by name many of the various Gospels and Epistles; and some, as we come nearer 397, even refer to a collection already existing in places. For example, we find Constantine, the first Christian Emperor, after the Council of Nicea, applying to Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea, and a great scholar, to provide fifty copies of the Christian Scriptures for public use in the churches of Constantinople, his new capital. This was in 332 A.D. The contents of these copies are known to us, perhaps (according to some, even probably) one of these very copies of Eusebius' handiwork has come down to us; but they are not precisely the same as our New Testament, though very nearly so. Again, we find lists of the books of the New Testament drawn up by St Athanasius, St Jerome, St Augustine, and many other great authorities, as witnessing to what was generally acknowledged as inspired Scripture in their day and generation and country; but I repeat that none of these corresponds perfectly to the collection in the Bible that we possess now; we must wait till 397 for the Council of Carthage, before we find the complete collection of New Testament books settled as we have it today, and as all Christendom had it till the sixteenth century, when the Reformers changed it.

And, please stop handling the Word of God deceitfully. There is no "hail Mary prayer" in the Bible. Luke 1:28 says:

"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

That was NOT any prayer, that was a GREETING from the angel who about to tell Mary her was mission from God. God has a mission for all of his true followers.

And the other scripture you quoted, Luke 1:41-42 also does not contain any "hail Mary prayer." It says:

"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."

No prayer there either. Just a statment of fact. Mary was blessed to be doing the will of God, just as any follower is blessed if they do God's will. Stop attacking Mary by attempting to deify her. :-(


Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Luke 1:28 "And coming to her, he said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you."

The Greek kecharitomene means favored by grace, graced. Its tense suggests a permanent state of being "highly favored," thus full of grace. Charity, the divine love within us, comes from the same root. God is infinite Goodness, infinite Love. Mary is perfect created goodness, filled to the limit of her finite being with grace or charity.

Blessed art thou among women

Luke 1:41-42a "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women..."

Luke 1:48 "For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed."

Among all women is a way to say the highest/greatest etc. of a group in Semitic languages (these words would likely have been spoken in Aramaic). Mary is being called the greatest of all women, greater than Ruth, greater than Sarah, greater than EVE! Since Eve was created immaculate (without original sin), Mary must have been conceived immaculate. And, although Eve fell into sin by her own free will, Mary must have corresponded to God's grace and remained sinless. She could not otherwise be greater than Eve. Thus, as the Fathers of the Church unanimously assert, Mary is the New Eve who restores womanhood to God's original intention and cooperates with the New Adam, her Son, for the Redemption of the world.

Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus

Luke 1:42b "and blessed is the fruit of your womb."

Jesus is Mary's fruit. Good fruit does not come from anything but a good tree (Mt. 7:17-18)! The all-holy Son of God could not be the fruit of any other tree than the Immaculate Virgin.

Holy Mary, Mother of God

Luke 1:43 "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Kyrios is the Greek word used by the Jews in the Septuagint Bible (Greek translation) for Yhwh, the Divine Name of God. In her greeting of Mary, Elizabeth is saying: "How is it that the mother of my God should come to me." Against the heresies of the 4th and 5th centuries which tried to split the Person of Jesus into two, divine and human, denying one or the other, the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD proclaimed Mary Theotokos (God-bearer, i.e. mother of God). Jesus is a single Person, a Divine Person, the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Trinity. To be mother of the Person Jesus is to be mother of a Person who is God. Mary's title protects this truth against errors which emphasize or deny, either the divinity or humanity of the Lord.

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Luke 2:35 "...and you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

John 2:5 "His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."

Mary sees a need and appeals to Her Son to satisfy it. He does. We turn to Mary to ask her to intercede with her Son in our daily spiritual and material needs, but especially at the hour of our death. At that moment our salvation hangs in the balance as the devil makes his final foray to deter us from the path to God (Rev. 2:10). It is not surprising, therefore, that both the Hail Mary and the Our Father conclude with an appeal to be delivered from the evil one.

According to the below scripture, I am as blessed, or more so, than Mary was:
I refer everyone back to the extensive blogging in the month of May on this topic. Candy is a lot of things. More blessed than the Blessed Mother is not one of them.

I hope you now see my point... You are intrepreting the Bible through the filter of the RC church cult, instead of reading it and interpreting it for yourself. Your church has taken the words of conversation from an angle, and from Elizabeth, and have turned them into a prayer to Mary. The Bible NEVER EVER tells us to pray to Mary. It would sure be a lot easier if you were saved, then God's Holy Spirit would guide and enlighten you. I will pray that you will heed God's call. He loves you so very much; please don't turn your back on Him for the traditions of man.
I know even before I started this blog, people would read Candy's blog and become very upset and discouraged. Don't be. I have been reading her blog for over a year now. These are not the writings of a scholar, historian, expert or spiritual leader of any kind. Her arguments are easily debunked- we do it here all of the time. Just take a deep breath, and pray for her. Say a rosary, go to adoration, offer an intention at mass, or just say a simple prayer. You'll feel better and if we offer prayers together God will find a way to use them in a way that brings His name glory. Just focus on that.

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Nancy Parode said...

Elena, thank you for this post. I have found that visiting Candy's blog sends me dangerously close to depression - not because of her in particular but because so many, many people believe all the lies about the Catholic Church that people like Jack Chick propagate and that Candy passes on (that "cracker" taunt sounds quite familiar!). You, Kelly and Erika have so patiently debunked Candy's incorrect statements (again); I know I wouldn't have the strength to take on a thankless job like that. Your statement of hope at the end of this particular post really cheers me up.

Tracy said...

thank you Elena, I feel as nancy does and that is why I had to bow out on helping at this site, I find it so almost depressing to read such lies about our faith, I feel stronger in our faith but so depressed for those who are spreading lies and the innocent who are falling for those lies, I worry for their souls and it can almost ruin my day, I'm so thankful that you and Kelly are strong enough to handle this, we are called to defend our faith but I do believe some of us do it better than others and you and Kelly are two of those types and I am your cheer leader standing on the sidelines offering up Prayers for you and Kelly and even Candy and her readers:)

a soldier's wife said...
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Deeny said...

Silly Pet Peeves of Mine.
First off I hate when people use the scripture
Revelation 22:18 to say that nothing should be added or taken away from the entire Bible. The Bible is a collection of books and that Scripture refers only to the book of Revelation.

Revelation 22:18 (New American Standard Bible)
18I testify to everyone who hears (A)the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone (B)adds to them, God will add to him (C)the plagues which are written in (D)this book;

With that said I do however believe the Canon was closed in 397 and includes the Deuterocanonical books.

Second Pet Peeve:
the Scripture in 2 Timothy 3:16 (New American Standard Bible)
16(A)All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

First this does not refer to the New Testament. In context it refers to the scriptures of Timothy's youth. The new Testament didn't exist in Timothy's youth. 2 Timothy 3:14-15 (New American Standard Bible)
14You, however, (A)continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that (B)from childhood you have known (C)the sacred writings which are able to (D)give you the wisdom that leads to (E)salvation through faith which is in (F)Christ Jesus.

Now what were the Sacred writings or scriptures from Timothy's youth? That would be the Old Testament in the Septuagint. That was the Greek version of the Old Testament used by the Jews at the time of Christ. The Septuagint includes the books we call the Deuterocanonical Books of the Bible. The 7 books the Protestants took out. Fragments of the Septuagint have been found as part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. If the Deuterocanonical books were good enough for Jesus and the Apostles they are ok by me. Also if the Jewish People were a people of the Book or Scriptures why do they observe Hanukah? It is not in the Protestant Old Testament? Hmm I'll give you a hint it is in the Book of Maccabees a Deuterocanonical Book.

3rd Pet Peeve you can't use this scripture in 2nd Timothy to support the idea that Scripture Alone is totally sufficient for Faith. This does not rule out Godly Tradition. This scripture says scripture is profitable and good but does not imply that it is all you need.

Another Pet Peeve and please correct me if I am wrong (just do it nicely :-) ) To my knowledge there is no such thing as the Roman Catholic Church. I cringe every time I hear the term. It is just the Catholic Church. Now within the Catholic Church there are different Rites with the Latin Rite also referred to as the Roman Rite being just one of many rites. There is also the Byzantine rite and I know there are others I just don't know what all the others are. Also the Orthodox church has almost (with minor differences) the same beliefs as the Catholic Church but nobody seems to rag on them. Also to my understanding even Luther has more in Common with Catholicism than it does with Baptist Fundamentalism. As per my study Luther believed in the Marion doctrines.
Sorry for my little rant, but thanks for having a forum from which to rant a little bit.
Oh one more thing. The Hail Mary Prayer may not be in the exact form in the Bible, but has already been shown the first several parts are taken straight from scripture in the Bible. Similarly the Fundamentalist "Sinners Prayer" is not any one place in the Bible. It is constructed from several different verses throughout the Bible. Nowhere is there an example of the sinners prayer being used to bring someone to Christ or to make them a Christian in the Bible. Peter in Acts did not use the sinners prayer form. He preached the Gospel. Then said repent and be baptized. Ok that is another discussion and getting off topic. But thanks again for an informative site.

Tracy said...

a soldiers wife; I had to stop looking at her blog for awhile because it got me very upset and feeling very unchristian, so now, before I bother looking, I pray for Candy and if something bothers me, I pray about it right away and I don't bother commenting to her about the Catholic church.. what is the point? I know that Kelly, Elena and Erika will deal with it and most of all Candy may think she is saving Catholics and getting them to leave their faith... not this Catholic... this Catholic is even MORE sure she is in the one true church.. each time I look at Candy's blog I am more and more excited to be right where God wants me to be and so I have to say thank you to Candy for that.. she has not ever shaken my faith.. not once!! I feel such sorrow and pity for Candy and that is what upsets me more than anything, I am a very soft hearted person and I ache for people and I ache for Candy and for those who are looking for truth but can't find it, even when it is right in front of them.. sadly.. Candy is the blind leading the blind and I pray fervently that they will all OPEN their eyes to the truth. Amen!!

a soldier's wife said...

Hi Tracy,
I hope my comment didn't come across sounding complaining or snippy. I didn't mean it that way at all. I am working on having more compassion and not letting so much bother me personally, but I don't always succeed.

Nancy Parode said...

a soldier's wife,

To me you don't sound snippy at all. I think you make a good point, one I hadn't thought of, about Candy needing approval in her life. Thanks!

Tracy said...

Soldiers wife, no you did NOT sound snippy at all!! I know exactly how you feel as I feel that way often as well, it is so hard to forgive and turn the other cheek. I think you have hit the nail right on in your assessment of Candy!!

a soldier's wife said...

I'm so grateful that the right tone came across. I always worry about that and hesitate before hitting publish concerned I'll be misunderstood. Thanks for the reassurance that I didn't sound snippy.

Rachel said...

I am constantly amazed by her followers. Again and again we hear "praying to Mary" "prayers of repetition" "no works needed" and yet we have explained and explained and explained. It falls on deaf ears.

I'm tempted to turn the tables. I'm tempted to ask why they "follow" Candy like a religion.. why do they IDOLIZE her. Why do they take her word as the gospel. They repeat what she has wrongfully spoken - even after hearing the truth FROM CATHOLICS. They propogate lies. They twist and turn the bible and pick apart the things they want. They say that salvation is FREELY given and therefor they are saved because they accepted the gift. Nothing more needed. Then why is she worried about spreading the gospel and saving people? Her "work" is done. She accepted the gift. Is she not doing "works" by attempting to spread the gospel? I'm dumbfounded when I read her blog. I am sickened to think other religions are teaching this to them. Why? What are they afraid of? Are they afraid to lose their congregation? Their tithing? Their power???

I did find this to help with her "we are not to canabilize or vampirize"

1 Corithians 10:16

The cup we use in the Lord's Supper and for which we give thanks to God: when we drink from it, we are sharing in the blood of Christ. And the bread we break when we eat it, we are sharing in the body of Christ.

That comes from THE BIBLE, folks.

Like many of you, she only pushes me to dig deeper and hold fast to my religion. Her lastest of condeming... but saying God had already condemened you?? HELLO?? Not my God! In reading the bible i see a pattern developing - the people sin, they ask for forgiveness,it is given. The people sin, they ask for forgiveness, it is given. I do pray for Candy and her followers. I really do not think they know how close to the Devil they really are! They have been fed apparent lies from.. wherever and even after being shown, proven and told again and again they continue to turn a deaf ear and slander Catholics.

How does that go... those who are persecuted all because of me?

If prayers did not originate in the bible.. where do we get songs from? That's okay tho? The songs we sing in church derived from the bible!! So to derive a prayer from the bible is wrong? Like was mentioned.. what about the prayer of salvation, or whatever it's called. Where did THAT come from? MAN?

This prayers of repetition. actually, it says VAIN repetition of prayers. Let's break that down.

Vain: having no real value; marked by futility or ineffectualness; having or showing undue or excessive pride in one's appearance or achievements

None of that applies when I pray my Rosary - what they call repetitious prayers. perhaps it is speaking more of praying for foolish things - to strike it rich, to have a beautiful body, to become rich and famous, etc. VAIN .. but they tend to leave that out and just say repetition of prayers.

Okay, i feel better after getting that off my chest LOL

unknown anon said...

Regarding the condemnation of the Rosary:

Clearly, many readers of KTH have the wrong idea about the content of the Rosary. I am flabbergasted when I read that there is nothing from the Scriptures in the Rosary, since it is meditation on and consideration of the life of Christ. They are conflating the externals of the practice with the actual body of the prayer.

There is no one so unknowing as one who chooses it.

Tracy said...

Excellent reply Rachel!!

angie said...

I just discovered this blog, and I am so thankful that I am not alone. I have commented to Candy, and I feel like "a lone voice in the wilderness" as she and her posse will not listen to what I have to say. I feel like I'm talking to a child who is covering their ears and singing, "lalalalala!" I just wrapped up the last of my responses to her. I vow to myself, to my family, and all of you as my witnesses, that I am done. I will just continue praying for her even though she doesn't want my prayers. I can relate to the comments you are sharing about becoming depressed when reading her blog. I love my Catholic faith so much, and to have someone spreading lies and spinning scripture to serve their own needs to be right just makes me literally sick to my stomach.

Instead I will come here and revel in the truth and continue learning the faith. :)

Elena said...

Welcome Angie! We've been waiting for you!

Out of curiosity how did you finally get here!!?

Nancy Parode said...

Hi Angie, and welcome! I love your comment about the singing child. That is exactly how I felt. I cannot figure out why it's OK to berate people and call them fools, then say it's love. In a relationship, that is called abuse. Much better, IMHO, to learn about the Catholic faith and about apologetics among friendly folks.

angie said...

I found you through Susan's blog (Saved Sinner). When I found you, I was absolutely giddy. I was becoming obsessed with Candy's blog, almost like a rubber necker needing to look at a bad car accident. Her last comment to me is that I'm leaving because I know she's right and I'm wrong. Whatever. I want to apologize if I did not do a good job arguing with Candy this last round. First of all, I am a totally non-confrontational person and second, I am on my journey to learn all of the wonderful details of the faith. My husband is a recent convert, and he is a great resource for me, but although I read my bible all the time, I'm not great at quickly finding what I'm looking for. Thank you for welcoming me here. I wasn't really feeling the love from Candy LOL, but I can tell there is love here. :)

Tracy said...

ANGIE... YEAH.. you made it!!!!! Welcome, Welcome, Welcome!!!!!

Tracy said...
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Rachel said...
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Rachel said...
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kritterc said...

Welcome Angie = I don't post much, but am an avid fan of this site. I have to tell you that I have learned to appreciate my faith so much more and have learned a great deal since I started reading this blog. Have you ever read any of Scott Hahn's books? I think every Catholic should read them. They are wonderful!! Peace and Blessings.

angie said...

kritterc- yes, I have read Rome Sweet Home, and I loved it. I suggested to Candy one time that she read it, and she ignored me. LOL (And that comment was never published- she doesn't publish anything that has resources that support the Catholic faith.) I am currently reading Life Giving Love by Kimberly Hahn, and it's really good too.

a soldier's wife said...

I am going to delete my comments, as I think they may have disregarded the guidelines of commenting, and because I don't want my comments to be seen as a personal attack, since that is not how I meant it.