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Friday, June 13, 2008

Ladies, please

I invited a commenter named Lori to visit our site. She wrote this today on Candy's blog:

I have gone to a website recently that is a "bash Candy" website. And quite honestly, I was nausiated by it. For crying out loud - so what if you don't agree with what she says. So what if she doesn't agree with what you say. She doesn't come searching you out to destroy.


I don't want to give anyone any more opportunities to write this. I want them to come here and be overwhelmed by our
1. Christian charity.
2. Logic and reason.
3. Use of scripture.

I am going to go through the comments (again) and ruthlessly take out any ad hominems towards Candy - and I mean any! Gals, I have enough on my plate, I don't need the extra work!! If you could police yourself, think about what you wrote yesterday and if it says anything about Candy's mental health, motives, personal life etc... then take it down yourself!

There's only one way to win this and it is going to come from holiness and intelligence, not by anger and emotional rhetoric! We may not change minds or win converts, but if we gain respect and understanding that's good too! Help me out here!




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25 comments:

Clare said...

Elena, I appreciate your scrupulousness in this matter, but My reading of this site is VERY different to that of Lori. "She who asserts must prove"...WHERE Lori was the 'bashing'? WHAT nauseated you? I do wonder if it would make any diiference what was written. For people like Lori I guess Candy is deserving of a special kind of respect. Certainly Candy seems to have some devoted admirers and for them any comment that doesn't gush approval will elicit the same kind of polarised and combative response.
That said, I totally agree that we should take care to season all with grace and keep guard on our fingers as they fly over the keyboard.
Being ambassadors for Christ requires a little self discipline, even in the face of grievous insult.

Clare said...

I hope Susan (http://sinnersavedbygod.blogspot.com/ ) doesn't mind me culling this, but I found this comment left at her blog today


Susan,
Thank you for posting the full context of what happened between you and Candy.

I tried leaving her a comment on the post directed to you, but it wasn't published. The gist of it was that I, like you, have learned a lot from her homemaking articles but have often been offended by her rants against Catholics. I'm not Catholic, but I've been reading Visits to Candyland whenever Candy has posted something anti-Catholic and have been genuinely impressed by the dialogue that takes place there. I've learned a lot about both Catholicism and Christianity by reading the posts and comments on that site (including your comments).

I'm something of an outsider looking in at this whole situation, so it's been enlightening for me. As I said to Candy in the comment that wasn't published, I'm a liberal agnostic from the northeast that works outside the home and splits childcare and housework with my (Hindu) husband, so I'm about as far outside of her typical readership base as it gets. I've been going to her blog for a while because she's amazingly skilled at cleaning and organizing, and there really aren't a lot of sites about those things written by women from my particular walk of life. I've enjoyed learning about those things from her. BUT... as someone that doesn't share her religious beliefs, I can honestly say that the way she approaches those topics is exceedingly unlikely to make me change my mind or make me interested in exploring Christianity. If the question is what makes a good witness to unbelievers, I'd say that the respectful, well-researched posts at VTC have opened my mind and heart much more than the vitriol that Candy has spewed. Now, I'm not going to go out and become Catholic, but reading over there makes me feel like they are approaching unbelievers with love and a kind spirit. Reading Candy's site often feels like a personal attack, so I couldn't possibly take her seriously.

Whew, this is long - sorry! I just wanted to express that I really am appreciate of your level-headed, love-filled way of dealing with this situation.

-Lisa

Elena said...

Wow! Thanks for sharing that Clare. That's the type of response we're trying for! That was humbling to read .

Blondie said...

I wonder if this Lori you invited is the same Lori who made this comment on Candy's blog:

Who cares if it hurts your feelings - I don't mean to sound harsh here, but the truth of the matter is, you are being told the things you are, because you are going to hell at this very moment in time.

And that's not nauseating?

Elena said...

Yes, sadly, that's the one.

Lori... said...

Hello! Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Lori and I am a devout bondservant of Christ. I am not concerned with what anyone else says, I am only concerned with healthy souls for Christ.

I have no affiliation with Candy's site besides hit and miss visiting. But - when I see an opportunity to share the Gospel of Christ, as I have so been instructed to do, I do so. I am not a 'follower' of Candy, I am a Follower of Christ. I do not "admire" Candy - I admire Christ.

That said, I would like to start here...I found this site nauseating to this extent - you say it is not a "Candy-bashing site", however, ladies, this entire blog is DEVOTED to and against everything Candy says - and it's not supportive. How is this NOT a Candy-bashing site? As I see it - this has become an obsession, and a needless one at that. When we focus our attention on other things, we are taking that time away from our focus on Christ. As Christian women, we are suppose to build-up, not tear down. Case in point - the link on your sidebar "Why Christian women should not buy the home management binder from...Candy" Why? What does that have to do with her views on the RC church? I read through her 'instructions' and I have a binder of the same sort. Does that make me a 'RC Church hating Christian'? Not at all, that makes me an organized Keeper of our home.

Just so you know, up front, I have a belief system, already. I know the Holy Bible, very well, but I don't EVER claim to know the Catholic religion, honestly I haven't felt the need to (until maybe now).

I'm not worried about what church you go to ladies, I'm ONLY concerned about souls going to Heaven. THAT'S ALL!!! It is going to be Hell here on earth, in not very long and that concerns me for the sake of MY family as well as anyone else that may not understand how to find Eternal Life.

Do I agree with HOW Candy handles her responses to the RC church? Not necessarily, but I love her regardless, simply because, she is a Christian Sister. She is a sinner just like you and me. I make terrible mistakes ALL THE TIME, but THIS site, is NOT glorifying to God ladies. I'm not saying that in a prejudicial way, (forgive me if it sounds like that) but it is slanderous and full of gossip. There is nothing Glorifying about it. With ALL things we need to be glorifying God. Honestly, I find the mere exsistence of this site equally AS offensive as the way Candy rebutes the RC church topic, even coming from "people like me".

I will not engage in arguements over whose religion is better. Likewise, I will not be accused falsely of damning souls to Hell (by mere association), but maybe and only MAYBE I can help with some answers, as to why Candy feels the way she does, in a meek and gentle tone.

One very quick question - since I DON'T know the Catholic religion well...

How do you ladies know you are going to Heaven? I mean, what are the rites or beliefs that "get you in"?

In His Name,
Lori

Kelly said...

Lori, exactly what part of this website do you see as gossip or attacking Candy personally? If Candy is not attacking Catholics personally, merely pointing out "the Truth," then that is exactly what we are doing.

We take the information Candy has given about the Catholic Church, and show where THAT INFORMATION is wrong. We point out the true Catholic doctrine. Now, if at that time, you still disagree with Catholic doctrine, then that's fine. We aren't out to convert anyone. We're just correcting misinformation.

So, exactly where are we calling Candy names, and gossiping about her personal life? The last two posts I put up were about Catholics who saved the lives of Jews during WWII, and giving a link where you could find more complete information about the Croatian death camp that Candy alluded to in a comment. That's not gossip, it's providing information that Candy won't allow us to provide on her website.

Now, there is a website that exists to do nothing but call Candy names and insult her, but we aren't it. And when that person spammed our blog with the link, we deleted it, every time.

Clare said...

Lori said:
"I find the mere exsistence of this site equally AS offensive as the way Candy rebutes the RC church topic"

And that was the point I nade earlier in my first comment above. It's not the 'tone' of this site that upsets Lori but rather its mere existence.
Anything less than disappearing and leaving Candy erroneus assertions unrefuted qualifies as 'Candy bashing'.
Lori's comment above confirms this very well.

Elena said...

Hello! Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Lori and I am a devout bondservant of Christ. I am not concerned with what anyone else says, I am only concerned with healthy souls for Christ.

Welcome Lori!


That said, I would like to start here...I found this site nauseating to this extent - you say it is not a "Candy-bashing site", however, ladies, this entire blog is DEVOTED to and against everything Candy says - and it's not supportive.


Actually Lori, the purpose of this blog is to clarify and correct errors about Catholicism that Candy posts on her blog and then does not allow us to correct, explain or debate. That's really it. Many of the ladies here have said they admire her homemaking posts. Our only issue and concern is with her deliberate attempts to mischaracterize Catholicism.


How is this NOT a Candy-bashing site?


Easy. Commenters and bloggers strive to not comment on anythign about Candy personally as a wife, mother, woman, blogger, homemaker, or even Christian. We are not out to hurt her as a person or to slander her. We are merely here to support Catholicism and to clarify the misinformation that she gives about the church. In other words, this isn't about Candy the messenger, this is about her erroneous messages!

As I see it - this has become an obsession, and a needless one at that. When we focus our attention on other things, we are taking that time away from our focus on Christ.

Actually if you take the time to actually READ the blog, you will see that we spend time here focused on the scriptures and the message of Christ as transmitted by the Catholic Church.

As Christian women, we are suppose to build-up, not tear down.

Um... you and Candy told a woman she was going to hell yesterday simply because she is Catholic. It upset her terribly. That doesn't seem very up lifting to me!

Case in point - the link on your sidebar "Why Christian women should not buy the home management binder from...Candy" Why? What does that have to do with her views on the RC church?

Well click on the sidebar link and see. Boycotting is a well known and much used Christian strategy of peaceful protest. We are peacefully protesting her anti-Catholic bashing by boycotting her e-book.


I read through her 'instructions' and I have a binder of the same sort. Does that make me a 'RC Church hating Christian'?

No. Telling someone that they are going to h ell because they are Catholic might though.


Not at all, that makes me an organized Keeper of our home.


Great. Be an Organized Keeper of the Home. I however, believe that Christians need to know when they buy that e-book that it supports anti-Catholic rhetoric, misinformation and lies. I believe in being an informed consumer don't you?

Just so you know, up front, I have a belief system, already. I know the Holy Bible, very well, but I don't EVER claim to know the Catholic religion, honestly I haven't felt the need to (until maybe now).


Which surprises me Lori. You know nothing of the Catholic religion but you would tell someone they were going to hell for being one? How is that possible?

I'm not worried about what church you go to ladies, I'm ONLY concerned about souls going to Heaven. THAT'S ALL!!!

Ah, then we have a point of agreement. That is also a very Catholic perspective!


Do I agree with HOW Candy handles her responses to the RC church? Not necessarily, but I love her regardless, simply because, she is a Christian Sister. She is a sinner just like you and me. I make terrible mistakes ALL THE TIME,

Ah!! More points of agreement! I too disagree with how Candy handles her responses, I want to b her Christian sister, and I acknowledge that we are all sinners! We all agree. Once again this too is a very Catholic perspective!


but THIS site, is NOT glorifying to God ladies. I'm not saying that in a prejudicial way, (forgive me if it sounds like that) but it is slanderous and full of gossip.

Actually it is not. Since you have made the assertion twice, please point me to a post or comment that is full of gossip. I would like to examine it and then remove it. This is an apologetics blog Lori, which also is very Christian and has deep roots back to the first century. Our purpose here is to debunk, explain and teach. We specifically look at the misinformation that Candy posts for that purpose. Please examine our side bar and you will see how we ue scripture and the catechism to explain and clarify our beliefs. That is historical Christianity and it does indeed Glorify God and His word.



There is nothing Glorifying about it. With ALL things we need to be glorifying God. Honestly, I find the mere exsistence of this site equally AS offensive as the way Candy rebutes the RC church topic, even coming from "people like me".


With all due respect Lori, I think you need to spend some time reading the archives before you make any assessments. Candy has lied and has not allowed discussion on her blog. She has slandered me and even posted a picture of my home and street in a malicious manner. This blog started as self-defense, but it has grown to be a site where many people glean information. We do not tolerate the same behavior that Candy has shown towards us.

I will not engage in arguements over whose religion is better.

Good. That's so 5th grade. I much prefer the scholarly apologetics approach.

Likewise, I will not be accused falsely of damning souls to Hell (by mere association), but maybe and only MAYBE I can help with some answers, as to why Candy feels the way she does,

Uh... Lori, you did. We saw your comment on Candy's blog. Blondie copied and pasted it here.


in a meek and gentle tone.

Meek and gentle?


One very quick question - since I DON'T know the Catholic religion well...

How do you ladies know you are going to Heaven? I mean, what are the rites or beliefs that "get you in"?


Check our archives out Lori. We have answers to this and many other questions and we have gone to great lengths to do so. A quick answer in the comment box won't suffice.

Thanks for visiting. I hope that you will actually stay now and read a while.

Your Sister in Christ,

Elena

Blondie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Blondie said...

How do you ladies know you are going to Heaven? I mean, what are the rites or beliefs that "get you in"?

It is only by the grace of God, through the blood of Jesus Christ, that we get to heaven. However we must be in a state of grace to be with the Lord - for no one unholy may see God! This means that when we die we must not have any mortal sin on our soul. That is what our journey on earth is about. I hope to get to heaven, because I hope that I will be in a state of grace. Do I know when I will die? No. Do I know what state I will be in at the time of my death? No. Nobody knows that for sure. I can only hope that I will persevere to the end, and that at the time of my death I will be in a state of grace. That is why I attend mass, receive Holy Communion, go to confession, pray the Rosary, etc. These things bring me closer to God, which gives me a much better chance of being in a state of grace whenever the time of my death may be.

June 13, 2008 7:00 AM

Lori... said...

As I said before - I will not engage in any arguements. I wanted every 'concerned' person here to know that I am not affiliated with Candy's blog. That's all.

FYI - of whomever is concerned about my comment..."going to hell" - there was an awful miscommunication somewhere (my fault obviously). I did NOT realize it came across the way it did and I have already gone to my fellow Sister and saught forgiveness.

I will not read any further nor will I comment any further. To that extent, I will not come back to this site, so consider this, specific, aquaintance over. What you say, about me (or anyone else) beyond this point, is between all of you Blessed Sisters.

In His Love!

Blondie said...

Hm, well I thought when she asked that question (how do you ladies know you are going to heaven) she honestly wanted an answer from a Catholic. Guess that was a waste of time!

Tracy said...

Lori, you are in my prayers:)

Tracy said...

Don't feel bad Blondie, I really enjoyed your comment and gleaned so much from it!!

Saved Sinner said...

Just to let you know, I have recieved a private apology from Lori which I have accepted.

Elena said...

That's fine Lori. I'm glad you apologized for the "going to hell" comment. That means a lot.

Feel free to lurk.

If you ever come across those elusive "gossip" posts, please feel free to bring them to my attention at elljazz@gmail.com

Perplexity said...

Lori, read the blog posts themselves, not just the comments.

People get frustrated, angry and forget themselves in the heat of passion, so to speak.

The comments on an individual post do not determine the reasons for the blog, the content or the intentions.

The actual blog posts/entries exist to refute false information about the Catholic Church, and even the false information about other churches and belief systems.

Commenters, of whom I am one, sometimes find it hard to control the anger and frustration felt at often willful ignorance, personal insults, broad generalizations and other things said and done to cast a negative light on those with opinions differing from the author for whom this blog is named.

That has no bearing on the blog itself, or those that put in a lot of time and effort to research their posts and information.

Most of the people here find it nauseating to read not only the willful misinformation of one blogger, but the spreading of that misinformation as if fact.

Kelly said...

PS--Clare, I *love* your 20's style picture! When I was in high school, I crocheted myself a hat like that, since you couldn't buy them. I used a vintage pattern of my grandmother's.

Present/Mother said...

I have nothing to add about the whole Lori situation, but I'm the one that left the comment at Susan's blog that Clare posted. I just wanted to pop in here as well and say that I really do appreciate the efforts you all make to put forth well-researched, meaningful information on why you believe what you believe.

The comment that I left for Candy that she refused to publish was certainly not rude, and since I only left it once, I don't see how it could be construed as "bugging" her. All I said was that I appreciate her homemaking articles but that I find her anti-Catholic posts really offensive. I did tell her that I'm not a Christian, so perhaps what "bugged" her was that citing scripture in response to me wouldn't get her anywhere.

In any event, I've learned a lot from this site. Even if I stop reading Candy's blog, I'll probably keep coming here. I'm not religious, but I believe that everyone can benefit from a respectful dialogue about religion, spirituality, and morality. I personally find those types of conversations very enlightening and informative. Too bad that Candy doesn't seem to see it that way.

Keep up the good work, ladies.

motherofmany said...

It might help your claim that this is an apologetics site and not a gossip or revenge site if you did not mention Candy's name in every other post.

Also, there have been several comments (by posters and readers) that anyone who thinks like Candy or reads her page is ignorant, brainwashed, or part of a cult. How is that statement any different that the assertion that Catholicism is a cult?

Blondie said...

Amy, what you said is true - those types of comments are no different than Candy calling the Catholic church a cult. However, I think it is quite obvious that Elena, Kelly, and the others here try to steer away from those kinds of discussions. I have witnessed several times a rude, gossipy comment being removed by the blog owner, Elena has posted clear commenting guidelines, and has gone out of her way several times to remind us to mind our manners.

angie said...

Lori- if you are reading here, I accept your apology and forgive you. I have been told by so many at Candy's blog to go away that I don't feel welcome to reply to you there. You told in a recent comment through Candy's blog to back up my information with scripture. I have done that, but Candy discards my research by saying I read the bible through the Catholic "filter." What's a girl to do in that situation? She operates by a set of rules that doesn't give a person a chance at a fair discussion. I have tried to talk with her in a very respectful manner, but she has taken so many vicious pokes at me, I guess I, too, came out of my corner, biting and scratching. I can't visit her site anymore because it definitely does not bring out the best in me.

motherofmany- I have to confess that I did make mention here yesterday that Candy's following was like a cult, and it was out of anger. I shouldn't have verbalized it here because that does violate the posting rules at this site. I guess I'm just puzzled at how so many people readily accept her atrocious claims about the church without going out on their own and finding out for themselves. Not only do they agree, they egg her on, and to me that is very sinful behavior. Another thing that I seriously question is Candy's refusal to give her reader's access to material that supports our defense of our faith. One time she recommended a very anti-Catholic book that I had seen discussed on www.catholic.com. It is purely an informational site, and she censored my response, calling my reference a cult. To me, protecting your readers from legitimate information that helps stop the spread of hate is a very questionable practice.

I have kept Candy in my prayers for months now. There was a lull in her Catholic bashing, and I was so excited. My thought was, "I'm sure she feels the same way, but maybe she has decided it's distasteful to air that in a public forum." Obviously I was very wrong. I will continue to keep her in my prayers even though she tells me my prayers are useless.

motherofmany said...

Angie,

I understand your frustration, as it frustrates me as well when Scott Hahn and the like are used as a source for info about fundamentalists. Sometimes a neutral source is best, because the need to 'prove' something is not getting in the way of an accurate portrayal. There are many sources that offer the same information Candy does about the Catholic church, though not in such an assertive way. I think it comes across to some that when you say only go to a Catholic source for informationa about Catholics, it is because a catholic source will paint the picture in a pro-catholic way.

It is also the responsibility of a reader to check things out before fully accepting them. I email Kelly often with links to news stories about Catholic items and ask for a rebutal or clarification reference. (i.e. Vatican support for the belief that aliens exist) But that also does not mean that I end up agreeing with the Catholic stance on many things. A lot of the argument is over perspective. While catholics feel there is so much 'splintering' amongst Protestants over traditions, Protestanst often feel the Vatican says one thing but not all Catholics agree, and that is no different. Your unity is at the top and not necessarily all the way down. So we end up accusing one another of the same principals, just in different dress.

Clare,

Certainly Candy seems to have some devoted admirers and for them any comment that doesn't gush approval will elicit the same kind of polarised and combative response.

It would be easy to use your words in reverse about this site. Quite often Elena posts a rebuttal to Candy, and the comment section is nothing but 'affirmations' and 'praise'. It is expected on one's own site to receive acolades and a special measure of respect. If the readership is like-minded people, it only makes sense.

Perplexity,

Most of the people here find it nauseating to read not only the willful misinformation of one blogger, but the spreading of that misinformation as if fact.

I think this would fall under the glass house paradox, as you have made assertions about Protestants based on a limited experience with family that you have a great deal of bitterness toward. You have, yourself, made blanket statements about other faiths and quanitified it only with 'in my experience'. Yet when Candy writes about her experience with Catholics, you become angered. Not only is it no different, I find in bewildering that you care so much when you have declared yourself a non-believer.

Elena said...

Ok, well we're done. Thanks ladies, let's keep our comments all the up and up shall we! We have a guest blogger tomorrow AND possibly a new blogger joining us soon So good times are coming!