Hell As Motivation

Katie Allison Granju posts on her blog today how some Baptist missionaries tried to "save" her by exploiting her son's death:

They shook their heads sadly and explained in so many words that given where I go to church, it’s possible that Henry is actually burning in hell right now. They then went on to suggest that “now would be a good time” to ensure that my remaining children do not meet a similar, fiery fate by bringing the kids to THEIR church, which God and Jesus apparently favor over my own.

Then they handed me some church-produced literature about the dangers of gay marriage and abortion and whatnot, and went on to the next house on our street.

I stood there, watching them walk away, bemused by the unmitigated gall of these women.
Did two Baptist missionaries just come into my yard and tell me that my recently deceased child is likely FRYING IN HELL? Why yes, yes they did.

 Compare this to some of what Candy has written:

This means being willing to talk about God outside of church, and not
wimping out by saying that you will witness simply by being an
example. What kind of Christian stands by and says nothing as their
family and friends head towards hell? If they reject the Gospel that
is one thing, but did you give them the chance to reject it? Every
Christian is commanded to spread the gospel.

Those who are headed for hell won't like you anyway, but being a
strong witness to the truth, you can help save those who recognize
Christ's call.

I'm sure these Baptists did not intend to offend Katie, and Katie seems good-natured about it.   But I have to wonder what this method of conversion says about their view of God. 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.


Is accepting Jesus as your Savior out of fear of punishment what God wants?  We should desire to follow God out of love, not out of fear.  We should respect God, yes.  Fear of the Lord is a virtue.  But just as God gave his only begotten Son out of love for us, so he wants our love in the same way.

If you are going to suggest exploiting the death of a loved one to try and convert someone, I would suggest trying this dialog instead.  "Do you know how much you love Henry?  Well, that's how much God loves you.  And do you know how you would have given anything to have been able to save his life, even give up your own?  God loves you so much, that he became human and gave up his own life to save yours."  Maybe you could then read the parable of the lost sheep.

How do you guys feel about this?  What do you suggest would be the best thing to say?  

Called To Share the Good News

A snippet of Erik's testimoney, which he shared on Candy's blog in July of 2008:

When I was growing up, going to church was something that you did for an hour on Sunday and then you got back to your 'Real Life'. Better yet, get church 'out of the way' on Saturday afternoon just before dinner so you can enjoy Sunday without interruption. I got the impression from my upbringing that it was impolite to talk about God outside of church. So much for spreading the gospel as Christ called every Christian to do.

Of course, Erik and Candy drew the conclusion that this reflected on the Catholic Church rather than Erik's family.  Certainly, there are mediocre Christians in every church.

You can read the importance of evangelization in this recent address which the Pope gave in Portugal.

From its origins, the Christian people has clearly recognized the importance of communicating the Good News of Jesus to those who did not yet know him. In recent years the anthropological, cultural, social and religious framework of humanity has changed; today the Church is called to face new challenges and is ready to dialogue with different cultures and religions, in the search for ways of building, along with all people of good will, the peaceful coexistence of peoples. The field of the mission ad gentes appears much broader today, and no longer to be defined on the basis of geographic considerations alone; in effect, not only non-Christian peoples and those who are far distant await us, but so do social and cultural milieux, and above all human hearts, which are the real goal of the missionary activity of the People of God.

 This is the mandate whose faithful fulfillment “must follow the road Christ himself walked, a way of poverty and obedience, of service and of self-sacrifice even unto death, a death from which he emerged victorious by his resurrection” (Ad Gentes, 5). Yes! We are called to serve the humanity of our own time, trusting in Jesus alone, letting ourselves be enlightened by his word: “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide” (Jn 15:16). How much time we have lost, how must work has been set back, on account of our lack of attention to this point! Everything is to be defined starting with Christ, as far as the origins and effectiveness of mission is concerned: we receive mission always from Christ, who has made known to us what he has heard from his Father, and we are appointed to mission through the Spirit, in the Church. Like the Church herself, which is the work of Christ and his Spirit, it is a question of renewing the face of the earth starting from God, God always and alone.

 Look, he even said "trusting in Jesus alone," not "trusting in Jesus and Mary."  Sounds downright Christian of him.

Sanctified for the Lord

Candy wishes to assure us that she is not preoccupied with outward appearances because she feels they are important, but because she wishes to be sanctified for the Lord.

As for me, I am going to continue to sanctify myself for the Lord, in
whatever manner He sees fit. It's all written in His precious Word.
All Glory goes to God.

Is this a slip, or does she really believe this? Sounds like works salvation to me. I did submit a comment asking her about this, but she neither printed the comment, nor changed the wording so I will assume it is what she meant to say.

While Jesus did sanctify himself (John 17:19) I was under the impression that it is God who sanctifies us, through the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Candy also writes: Such Scriptures are to be followed as well, such as
Ephesians 5, where it tells wives to submit to their husbands, and 1
Timothy 2, where it discusses how women should dress and wear their
hair, in addition to their heart and behavior, and then there's 1 Cor.
11, where the head covering is discussed.

1 Tim 2:9-10 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

1 Timothy says that we should be dressed modestly, and not be so concerned with our outward appearances, such as spending a lot of time doing our hair, wearing expensive jewelry, or designer clothing. Instead, we should be dressed with good deeds. Our actions speak of our faith more than our clothing.

Which is what I said in the post below where I was concerned that breaking with family would send a loud negative message about Christianity.

Salvation by Merit

Defining the terms is very important when you are discussing theology. Do not be scared, just because a word such as "merit" appears in the Catechism. You should not leap to the assumption that it means Catholics believe we earn our salvation. What you should do is see what Catholics mean when they use the term.

The word 'pray' is another example of this. It has come to imply worship, although the older original meaning was to make a request, or to entreat. When you look up the definition of a word in an unabridged dictionary, it lists the Catholic meaning as either "eccl" or "R. Cath" in the definition. The Catholic Church is so old, that it uses vocabulary which is now a bit antiquated.

What does the Catechism have to say about merit?

III. MERIT

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.

2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.

What this is saying, if you remove the offensive word "merit" is that it is God who initializes that moment where we accept Jesus as our Saviour, thereby obtaining (or meriting) salvation. Read #2007 carefully. It says that everything we merit originates from God.

What is necessary for salvation? God gives us the grace necessary for salvation. Then we turn to Him. Does He do everything? How much of our acceptance is work and how much is God? Can man initiate (semi-Pelagian) or is it only God? Are we co-operating with God, or not?

When we get to justification, is it imputed or infused? What type of grace are we talking here, sanctifying or actual?

To say that faith is simple is to oversimplify. There are a lot of possible variations, that that is why it seems complicated, and why we end up with so many beliefs among Christians.

To read the full section on justification in the Catechism, look here. But I will excerpt a few selections which show that we believed we are saved by God's grace.

#1992

Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

#1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

#1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.

#2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.

#2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.

#2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit." Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

That was the section immediately before the Catechism begins to discuss merit. So we are back to that topic. There are two kinds of merit in Catholic doctrine, condign merit and congruous merit.

See Catholic Encyclopedia for more information, but here is what I feel is the important part:

Condign merit supposes an equality between service and return; it is measured by commutative justice (justitia commutativa), and thus gives a real claim to a reward. Congruous merit, owing to its inadequacy and the lack of intrinsic proportion between the service and the recompense, claims a reward only on the ground of equity.

Christian faith teaches us that the Incarnate Son of God by His death on the cross has in our stead fully satisfied God's anger at our sins, and thereby effected a reconciliation between the world and its Creator. Not, however, as though nothing were now left to be done by man, or as though he were now restored to the state of original innocence, whether he wills it or not; on the contrary, God and Christ demand of him that he make the fruits of the Sacrifice of the Cross his own by personal exertion and co-operation with grace, by justifying faith and the reception of baptism. It is a defined article of the Catholic Faith that man before, in, and after justification derives his whole capability of meriting and satisfying, as well as his actual merits and satisfactions, solely from the infinite treasure of merits which Christ gained for us on the Cross.

So, to the best of my understanding, God gives us the grace that we need to turn to him, and cooperate. It is through this free response that we might say we merit our salvation, which is due entirely to Christ. To avoid the prohibited word "merit" we might instead say "accept the free gift of salvation by our faith."

As I said before, this is about vocabulary.

Works are bad, but bearing fruits is good.

Accepting/believing is not an action, despite being a verb, because actions are works, which are bad.

Meriting salvation is bad, but obtaining or being giving a salvation after an action is good.


I believe we are expressing the same idea, but in different words.

Conversation with a Catholic friend

I'm bumping this up to the top because I have added a record of Candy's comments section.

Who knew Candy had a Catholic friend? Perhaps he is more of an acquaintance. At any rate, Candy posts about their conversation today:

Good News Ahead

Yesterday, I had a conversation with a friend who is Roman Catholic.
He said some things that I'd like to address on this blog, in case
anyone else thinks or says the same thing. That conversation was
great, and I think we both walked away having enjoyed a thorough
theological conversation. :-)

My Catholic friend said that he believes that if a person thinks they
are "saved," then they must not sin, because if they sin, they are not
"saved."

I submitted the following comment, which was approved by Candy:

Did this friend actually use the phrase "earn my salvation"? Because I have never heard a Catholic use that phrase.

Many Catholics mistakenly believe that in order to go to heaven you must "be a good person." So do many Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc. It is a very common idea floating around among lukewarm Christians at the moment.

Candy responded:
My friend knows I'm a Bible believing Christian, so he used terms I'm familiar with, I'm sure. :-)

I think the problem with this comes down to defining the terms. Catholics and Baptists look at things very differently. Bear with me while I repeat a story for the 100th time.

I grew up in a predominately Baptist area. I went to school with many people who told me that they were "saved" and were sure that they were going to heaven. I, being a Catholic, was surely hellbound. These people were often the who lied, cheated, stole, and slept around. From my point of view, how could these people think they were going to heaven living a life like that?

It wasn't necessarily that I believed they were failing to earn their salvation. Rather, I thought that they were lacking faith because of their actions. Faith without works is dead, and all that. We discussed this in depth when Candy was studying John 5.

My friend also said that he believes that one has to earn salvation
via good works, and that the person must work hard, every single day,
to be a good person, and do good works, or they have not earned their
salvation.

It sounds to me as if her friend was familiar with the importance of perseverance in Scripture.

Heb 3:13-14 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

1 Tim 19-20 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of endurance, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

1 Cor 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

And one of my favorite verses in the Bible, 2 Tim 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished
the race, I have kept the faith.

Candy certainly feels that works are important in the life of a Christian.

I don't know anything about Candy's Catholic friend. Odds are that he doesn't know much about his faith. However, I think that they were probably having a conversation where neither one really understood what the other meant.

I submitted a follow-up comment:

I don't know anything about your Catholic friend, how much he knows
about what you believe, or his own faith. However, it is very
possible that you were both reading in your own understanding to what
the other was saying.

I grew up in a predominately Baptist area. I went to school with many
people who told me that they were "saved" and were sure that they were
going to heaven. I, being a Catholic, was surely hellbound. These
people were often the who lied, cheated, stole, and slept around. From
my point of view, how could these people think they were going to
heaven living a life like that?

It wasn't necessarily that I believed they were failing to earn their
salvation. Rather, I thought that they were lacking faith because of
their actions. Faith without works is dead, and all that.

According to the Catholic Catechism, the Catholic Church affirms the
necessity of faith. (see above quotes)

Also, working hard every single day is very Scriptural. (see above quotes)


Candy replies:
Kelly - I've seen it from the other angle. I've seen some people, professing to be Catholic, go out drinking, breaking the law, and living a riotious life, but then they go to confession and mass, and they think that makes it alright.

A saved Christian, regardless if they're Baptist or something else, is only truly saved, if they put their trust for salvation in Christ, and in Him alone. We don't have to follow traditions of man or "church." We only need to follow Christ, and Him alone.

I've heard that the Catholic church professes faith in Christ,but then that begs the question as to why the unbliblical doctrine of purgatory? If Christ paid it ALL, then there is no need of purgatory.

The closest thing to purgatory you'll find in the Bible, is that there was a holding place where all the dead went, and after Christ died and rose again, those who were saved went to heaven. That holding place no longer holds any Christians.

It would take too much to get into it, but there are three heavens - the third being where God dwells - the heaven. There are also three compartments of hell - the holding cell, which is now empty, the outer darkness, and the lake of fire, which no one is in yet. All who go to hell are currently in outer darkness, and all who are saved, go straight to heaven, as the Bible says - "absent from the body, present with the Lord." Amen.

I reply:
Kelly - I've seen it from the other angle. I've seen some people, professing to be Catholic, go out drinking, breaking the law, and living a riotious life, but then they go to confession and mass, and they think that makes it alright.

Certainly, there are a lot of Catholics who are lukewarm just as there are in any group of Christians. My point was that Catholics tend to focus on the works which show our faith, as well as the importance of perseverance, while you tend to focus on the moment of profession of faith. They are two sides of the same coin.

You often write of the importance of bearing good fruit if you are truly saved. You wouldn't say that this is earning your salvation. We are all saved by God's grace.

Purgatory is too much of a topic to get sidetracked on in your comments section. I will only say that the Catholic Church affirms that Jesus paid all of our debt.

CCC #613 Christ's death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world", and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the "blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins".

#614 This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices. First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience.

#615 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous." By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who "makes himself an offering for sin", when "he bore the sin of many", and who "shall make many to be accounted righteous", for "he shall bear their iniquities". Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.

Candy did post this comment, but has so far not replied. How nice that she has posted all of my comments, and with Catechism quotes and all!

An Anonymous commentor said Kathy--Why don't you show support for your argument from the Bible, the one true word of God? That, in my estimation, is the problem with the Catholic religion (in general, mind you)...reliance on man's "interpretations." While I understand the Catholic belief in the infallability of a pope, I don't believe it. There is only ONE way to the Father, and that is through Jesus Christ, his Son. Man does not need an intercessor (which is the purpose of the pope). Therefore, your continued referal to the catechism in an argument about faith is not sound.

My response:
Well, we have two Anons, a Kathy, and a Kelly. One Anon, referring to
Kathy, wrote Therefore, your continued referal to the catechism in
an argument about faith is not sound.

As Kathy had not yet written on this thread, I think you must be
referring to me, Anon. I don't see that there is any argument about
faith taking place. I agreed with Candy that there is only ONE
Mediator, and that is Jesus. I can certainly provide Scripture verses
for that if you like, although Candy has already provided several.

Candy feels that the Catholic Church teaches salvation by works, and
that more than one Mediator is needed for salvation. I quoted from
the Catholic Catechism, which is the statement of faith for the
Catholic Church, to show that we are in agreement on these matters.
Most churches have a statement of faith, and it is helpful to refer to
it to clear up exactly what a particular church teaches.

Sorry, but I'm not what the Pope has to do with the discussion.

Candy has now replied to my previous comment.

Kelly, if you are trusting in Christ alone, then why be a Catholic? Why not just be a Christian, as the first Christians in Antioch called themselves?

According to the Roman Catholic church, Mary is the mediator:

"Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself "in the middle," that is to say she acts as a mediatrix [mediator] not as an outsider, but in her position as mother."

The above is quoted from the Vatican's Holy See, here:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater_en.html

The Bible says that there is only ONE mediator, and that mediator is not Mary:

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -1 Timothy 2:5


I reply:
Candy, my husband needs the computer for the evening, so I won't be able to post a response after this one until tomorrow. But I'd like to say that I appreciate that you have let me post comments.

Considering Mary as mediatrix does not negate Jesus as the One Mediator. This is a difference in understanding what is meant by mediatrix. When Catholics refer to Mary as Mediatrix, we saying that God entered the world through her. Jesus was physically born by a woman, and that woman was Mary. Because she cooperated with God, by saying yes to him, Jesus was able to enter the world. Because she cooperated with God, God worked through her (mediated). To deny that she cooperated with God would be to deny Mary free will.

The word Catholic means "universal." I am a Catholic Christian because I am a part of the one church of all believers.

As a last note, a search on the online Catechism shows that it refers in 12 places to Jesus as being "the Mediator," "the unique Mediator" or "the only Mediator."

Defining the terms is so very important in discussion such as these.

In the quote you posted from the Vatican website, it states "that is to say she acts as a mediatrix [mediator] not as an outsider, but in her position as mother."

This is not Mary occupying the place of Jesus, but an affirmation of the miracle of the Incarnation. God took flesh through the body of Mary. She mediated the event of the Incarnation.


Candy's reply:
Kelly, I have been enjoying our conversation. :-)

The original "Catholic," or Universal church was not Roman Catholic. That came years later. The first place where the Catholic church veered from the Scriptures, was when they started placing bishops in charge of large groups of churches, however the Scriptures say that there is supposed to be one Bishop per church, or what non RC Christians refer to as Pastors, which is also a Scriptural term.

Some people stayed with the Universal/Catholic church, even though they veered a bit with the Bishops. But some groups decided to splinter off. Little by little more dogma was picked up by the Catholic church, which was not Scriptural, and more groups splintered off.

Fast forward many years, and you have the New Testament church, who were originally in the Universal/Catholic church, and you have the Roman Catholic church, which hardly resembled the original Universal/Catholic church.

We agree that Jesus is the only way to heaven, yes? You and I agree also, that salvation is through faith in Christ, and in Christ alone, correct?

Then why does the Catholic church teach Catholics to pray to Mary:

"The members of the Rosary Sodality, therefore, do exceedingly well in weaving together, as in a crown, so many salutations and prayers to Mary."

The above is quoted from the Vatican Holy See, at:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_12091897_augustissimae-virginis-mariae_en.html

To pray to Mary brings the assumption that she can actually hear and be an aide in your prayers getting answered. Yet, nowhere in the Bible are we told that Mary had the omnipresence, omniscience, etc of God. She would have to have these properties, or she 1) wouldn't hear a single prayer, but if she somehow did, 2) she wouldn't be able to hear millions of people, all over the world, praying to her at the same time.

The Bible tells us that we are to direct our prayers straight to God. We now go to God through Christ.

Some Catholics teach that Mary is the mediator between Catholics and Christ. This is adding to the Word of God.

I posit the strong possibility (which I believe to be an actuality) that the Roman Catholic Church adds to the Word of God via the traditions of man:

"For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do." -Mark 7:8

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." -Mark 7:13

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." -Colossians 2:8

If the Roman Catholic church believes that Christ is the only way, and that Christ paid it all, then why have unScriptural doctrines of purgatory? Why have a pope? Why elevate Mary higher than the Bible does?


I think I'm going to let the conversation rest for now. She's at the point where she's throwing the full list of Mary/Pope/purgatory at me, so there is no short response available. Plus, I don't want to press my luck. I'm very happy with the conversation.

Candy's Catholic "Friend"

Today Candy Writes:

Yesterday, I had a conversation with a friend who is Roman Catholic. He said some things that I'd like to address on this blog, in case anyone else thinks or says the same thing. That conversation was great, and I think we both walked away having enjoyed a thorough theological conversation. :-)

My Catholic friend said that he believes that if a person thinks they are "saved," then they must not sin, because if they sin, they are not "saved." I would like to show the error in this belief via Scripture:

1 John 1:

"7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

My friend also said that he believes that one has to earn salvation via good works, and that the person must work hard, every single day, to be a good person, and do good works, or they have not earned their salvation. I would like to show Scripture that shows that that doctrine is also in error:

Ephesians 2:

"8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast."

It doesn't matter what church you attend. Attending, or being the member of a certain church will not get you into heaven. Neither will doing good works. Doing good works does not erase the sin we've committed. This is like a person who murdered his best friend, and then decided that they were going to be good, from then on out.

Should they then not be punished for the crime they committed, or should it be forgotten, because now he's a "good guy?" Obviously, no matter how good the person has become, they still need to pay for the sins they committed.

Being good, and doing good works will not and cannot cleans or cover our sins. We still need to pay for what we did wrong, or justice has not been served.

You are probably not a murderer, but lying is a sin, as well as impure thoughts. You are probably guilty of those, at the least. The Bible tells us that everyone is a sinner. The Bible also tells us what has to be done to pay for those sins:

I personally do not believe that Candy has a Catholic "friend." She's not tolerant enough for that. I also think that her "friend" was either messing with her or was another uncatechized Catholic.

We have tackled Salvation on this blog before.
October 6, 2009
September 19, 2009
February 10, 2009

For a complete listing see here.

Here is what the Catechism (which Candy apparently still ignores - which is odd for someone who thinks she knows so much on the topic) says: (Please note the catechism citations also reference scripture!)

169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16).

620 Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (I Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19).

621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: "This is my body which is given for you" (Lk 22:19).

622 The redemption won by Christ consists in this, that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mt 20:28), that is, he "loved [his own] to the end" (Jn 13:1), so that they might be "ransomed from the futile ways inherited from [their] fathers" (I Pt 1:18).

623 By his loving obedience to the Father, "unto death, even death on a cross" (Phil 2:8), Jesus fulfills the atoning mission (cf. Is 53:10) of the suffering Servant, who will "make many righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities" (Is 53:11; cf. Rom 5:19).

1697 - a catechesis of grace, for it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life;

1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will.92 In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end"93 and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved."94 She longs to be united with Christ, her Bridegroom, in the glory of heaven:

Hope, O my soul, hope. You know neither the day nor the hour. Watch carefully, for everything passes quickly, even though your impatience makes doubtful what is certain, and turns a very short time into a long one. Dream that the more you struggle, the more you prove the love that you bear your God, and the more you will rejoice one day with your Beloved, in a happiness and rapture that can never end.95

Once Saved, Always Saved

Today, Candy takes on the question of whether or not one can lose their salvation. She puts forth her position as thus:

There have been many people who claim that they used to be Christians, but have left the faith. I posit the likelihood that most of those people were never truly saved - that they never tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. I think most of them played church, or played holy person for a while, but then they gave it up when it didn't work. That is not salvation, and praise God for that.

Candy says that her position is unusual, but it is the most common that I have heard. I really haven't run across many people who feel that you are always saved, no matter what you do, even if you reject the faith. I hear "then they must have never really been saved" a lot, especially relating to people who have converted to Catholicism.

In Candy's normal, sensitive way, she says that people who have forsaken the sake must be idiots. She gives the impression that people who have lost their faith are shallow and only "played church." I'm not sure how people who were so convinced of their faith as to become ministers could only be playing at church, but that is her belief.

I can't help but feel sorrow for people who had a deep faith, but lost it because of a tragedy in their lives, or persecution, or temptation to despair. Consider those who lost their families in a natural disaster such as the tsunami a few years back. When your children are literally ripped from your hands, who could help but to have at least some doubts about God.

We also discussed in the comments section just a week or so ago, the Donatists who were dealing with Christians who had renounced the faith under the Roman persecution. While Candy would say that someone who renounced the faith rather than be martyred was likely never saved in the first place, the Donatists felt that these people had lost the grace of God. Truly, the problem of what it means when someone rejects the faith is one which has always been around.

Personally, while I hope and pray that in a time of sorrow or persecution I would cling to God instead of reject him, I feel nothing but sorrow for those who have not been able to keep the faith. I can't imagine how horrible it must be to have been a joyful member of a OSAS congregation, and then have all of your friends and former fellow Christians reject you and say that you must have only been playing at church instead of reaching out to you in your time of need.

As for the Catholic Church, we believe that salvation is an ongoing process. As Milehimama once put it:

We HAVE BEEN saved by grace:
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

We ARE BEING saved
1 Cor 1:18, above.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)- Ephesians 2:5

We WILL BE saved:
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved - Matt 10:22

We HOPE to be saved:
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? - Romans 8:24


One could write pages on the many verses which speak of this teaching, but I will share only a few which lead me to disagree with Candy on this subject.

Hope is one of the three theological virtues, faith, hope, and charity. We hope to be saved.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

1 Thes 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Furthermore, perseverance is important. If we are "once saved, always saved" then why would we need to persevere. Merely playing at faith is not truly having faith, so perseverance is not needed there, only true faith.

Heb 3:13-14 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

1 Tim 19-20 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of endurance, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

1 Cor 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

And one of my favorite verses in the Bible, 2 Tim 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished
the race, I have kept the faith.

Separated Brethern Versus Anathematized

Turretinfan wrote:

"Separated brethren" sounds like the people are still going to heaven - "Anathema" has a different sound. The former is the more ecumenical and inclusive post-Vatican-II approach, whereas the latter is the more austere approach the preceded it. Or so it appears.

Is it your position that either Trent didn't mean to condemn folks to hell by using the word "anathema" or that "separated brethren" doesn't mean that we are able to be saved without the removal of that separation?

Well, "sounding like" can sometimes lead one astray. "C0-Mediatrix" sounds like it means Mary is equal to Jesus, whereas the title does not actually have that meaning.

The Council of Trent took place at a time when the Reformation was fresh, and not considered an established fact. The council reformed areas in the Church, agreeing that reform was needed. In other areas, it held the line. The anathemas drew attention to how serious this was, and what was at stake. You were not in communion with the Church, and in danger of hell, if you did not repent. This was a time when going to war to solve a theological issue made perfect sense.

At the time in which Vatican II took place, the Reformation is now an established fact. There are people who left the Catholic Church generations ago, and have no sense of having protested against it. Many of them are in denominations that are off-shoots of off-shoots, for example, the Methodists descend from the Anglicans.

We are no longer living in the time where a king will wait barefoot in the snow for three days in order to have his excommunication lifted. Anathemas, and excommunications of those who are already outside the Church will only push people away, not draw them in. Therefore, the change in vocabulary reflects that.

I do not see that the actual Church doctrine has changed. From the Catechism:

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."³²⁰

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"³²¹

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."³²² Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."³²³ With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."

Dominus Iesus was written after the compilation of the Catechism, and states this more clearly:

IV. UNICITY AND UNITY OF THE CHURCH

16. The Lord Jesus, the only Saviour, did not only establish a simple community of disciples, but constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: he himself is in the Church and the Church is in him (cf. Jn 15:1ff.; Gal 3:28; Eph 4:15-16; Acts 9:5). Therefore, the fullness of Christ's salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord. Indeed, Jesus Christ continues his presence and his work of salvation in the Church and by means of the Church (cf. Col 1:24-27),⁴⁷ which is his body (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-13, 27; Col 1:18).⁴⁸ And thus, just as the head and members of a living body, though not identical, are inseparable, so too Christ and the Church can neither be confused nor separated, and constitute a single “whole Christ”.⁴⁹ This same inseparability is also expressed in the New Testament by the analogy of the Church as the Bride of Christ (cf. 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-29; Rev 21:2,9).⁵⁰

Therefore, in connection with the unicity and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus Christ, the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: “a single Catholic and apostolic Church”.⁵¹ Furthermore, the promises of the Lord that he would not abandon his Church (cf. Mt 16:18; 28:20) and that he would guide her by his Spirit (cf. Jn 16:13) mean, according to Catholic faith, that the unicity and the unity of the Church — like everything that belongs to the Church's integrity — will never be lacking.⁵²

So, Christ established only one Church. We cannot all be lumped together as a single Christian entity under the heading of a spiritual Church of Christ.

Then, a little further down:

17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.⁵⁸ The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.⁵⁹ Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.⁶⁰

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,⁶¹ are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.⁶² Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.⁶³

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.⁶⁴ In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.⁶⁵ “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.⁶⁶

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.⁶⁷

What I understand this to be saying, and again, I want to caution that I am no theologian, this is just my personal understanding, is that you still need to be a part of the Catholic Church in order to attain salvation. Our separated brethren are still joined to the Catholic Church because the efficacy of their baptism is derived from the Catholic Church, in some way.

The anathemas of Trent were warning a group of people who were leaving the Church that they were in danger of hell by separating themselves from the fullness of Truth. The separated brethren of Vatican II is reminding people who see themselves as having never been a part of the Catholic Church, that they are, in a sense, joined in communion with the Church, and hopes that they will draw ever nearer.

I feel that asking "Can you be saved without joining the Catholic Church" is sort like asking "Can you be saved and never read the Bible?" Sure, you can, but you're missing out on a lot.

The Ultimate Anathema Post

Anathemas Part I- What is anathema and is it still around
Anathemas Part II- But this guy says that they really are still around
Anathemas Part III- In which the canons of Trent are actually discussed, instead of the anathemas

Now Paul has directed me to Turretinfan, who says this:

Today I encountered the following comment: "Anathemas were done away with under the most recent Code of Canon Law." It's not the first time I've seen this claim. The problem is this: I have the most recent Code of Canon Law and it doesn't (that I can find) even mention anathemas. I suppose that some folks in Roman Catholicism think this silence means that anathemas have been done away. That seems like as weak an argument as the argument that prayer veils are no longer required because of the silence regarding them. I wonder whether there is anything more to the argument than that. Any ideas anyone?

I'm aware of Mr. Akin's argument as follows:

Yet the penalty was used so seldom that it was removed from the 1983 Code of Canon Law. This means that today the penalty of anathema does not exist in Church law. The new Code provided that, "When this Code goes into effect, the following are abrogated: 1º the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917 . . . 3º any universal or particular penal laws whatsoever issued by the Apostolic See, unless they are contained in this Code" (CIC [1983] 6 §1). The penalty of anathema was not renewed in the new Code, and thus it was abrogated when the Code went into effect on January 1, 1983.

The problems with that type of argument are:

1) Where was anathema mentioned in the 1917 Code? I've perused that code and couldn't find it. Perhaps I overlooked something?

2) A penalty and a penal law are not the same thing.

If that's all Mr. Akin has, his argument seems exceptionally weak.

Anathemas are mentioned in canon 2257 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law. Unfortunately, not available online in English.

Can 2257 §1. Excommunicatio est censura qua quis excluditur a communione fidelium cum effectibus qui in canonibus, qui sequuntur, enumerantur, quique separari nequeunt.
§2. Dicitur quoque anathema, praesertim si cum sollemnitatibus infligatur quae in Pontificali Romano describuntur.


At any rate, you know what? I'm not a canon lawyer. I'm a stay at home, mother of four with an incredible non-sleeping baby. This is my night job. I have no idea if anathemas are still around or not. My question is, does it matter?

First, suppose anathema is still an option. It still needs a formal ceremony and lots of paperwork. When the Catholic Church excommunicates someone, it is a big deal. Usually there are news stories involved such as this or this.

I haven't seen any big anathema stories, so I'm guessing that if it is still an option, it isn't one which is used. The first story I linked to says that excommunication is the severest form of punishment, so I still feel that Jimmy Akin is right, and anathemas are no longer around. Clearly, none of you has been formally anathematized.

Second, suppose that not only are the anathemas still around, but the ones in Trent are in force, and DO apply to any non-Catholic who happens to pick up a copy of the canons of the Council of Trent. What does that mean?

The canons define what the Catholic Church believes. If you do not believe that you are anathema, or excommunicated. It means that you are out of communion, or not a part of the church. You do not agree with our statement of faith, therefore you are not a member. I don't see how that is a problem unless you are wanting to be calling yourself a Catholic while not holding to the tenets of the faith.

Is the offense that excommunication/anathema is intended as a warning that you are in danger of hell? Excommunication is a Biblical form of church discipline practiced by other faiths.

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

1 Cor 16:22 (explicit in KJV) If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Yes, we believe that the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth. You, our separated brethren, have some aspects of the Truth, and we respect you for that. But I fail to see why you are so offended that we think you are wrong when you spend such a long time in the comments section trying to prove that . . . we are wrong and in danger of hell.

For an exhaustive look at anathemas, try over at Dave Armstrong's blog.

Not A Child of God

I found this most recent post by Candy to be profoundly sad. It is true that not everyone will "be saved" but what a horrible way of looking at humanity. Especially when you consider that Candy has said that very few people will be saved. Therefore, most of humanity would not be children of God.

While this isn't my best area of theology (so please, correct any errors), I feel the Catholic Church has a much more positive view of humanity.

First, all of mankind is special, because man is created in the image of God, and because God became Incarnate, or enfleshed:

355 "God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them."²¹⁸ Man occupies a unique place in creation: (I) he is "in the image of God"; (II) in his own nature he unites the spiritual and material worlds; (III) he is created "male and female"; (IV) God established him in his friendship.

I. "IN THE IMAGE OF GOD"

356 Of all visible creatures only man is "able to know and love his creator".²¹⁹ He is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake",²²⁰ and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God's own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:

What made you establish man in so great a dignity? Certainly the incalculable love by which you have looked on your creature in yourself! You are taken with love for her; for by love indeed you created her, by love you have given her a being capable of tasting your eternal Good.²²¹

357 Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. And he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.

358 God created everything for man,²²² but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him:

What is it that is about to be created, that enjoys such honor? It is man that great and wonderful living creature, more precious in the eyes of God than all other creatures! For him the heavens and the earth, the sea and all the rest of creation exist. God attached so much importance to his salvation that he did not spare his own Son for the sake of man. Nor does he ever cease to work, trying every possible means, until he has raised man up to himself and made him sit at his right hand.²²³

359 "In reality it is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear."²²⁴

St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ. . . The first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The first Adam was made by the last Adam, from whom he also received his soul, to give him life. . . The second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. That is why he took on himself the role and the name of the first Adam, in order that he might not lose what he had made in his own image. The first Adam, the last Adam: the first had a beginning, the last knows no end. The last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: "I am the first and the last."²²⁵

II. "BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE"

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."²²⁹ Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person.²³⁰ But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,²³¹ that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:²³²

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. ²³³

God desires us all to be saved, because of His great love for us. While Candy has described heaven as a place where she will wear special crowns, and enjoy the treasures she has stored up there, Catholics view heaven as being in the presence of God, and perpetually adoring Him there:

Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face:⁵⁹⁸

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.⁵⁹⁹

1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called "heaven." Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

1025 To live in heaven is "to be with Christ." The elect live "in Christ,"⁶⁰⁰ but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.⁶⁰¹

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom.⁶⁰²

1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father's house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him."⁶⁰³

1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man's immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory "the beatific vision":

How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God's friends.⁶⁰⁴

1029 In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God's will in relation to other men and to all creation. Already they reign with Christ; with him "they shall reign for ever and ever."⁶⁰⁵

I think that God also loves those who will go to hell. They are condemned because of a willful rejection of God, and would not be happy being in His presence in Heaven. Therefore, hell is a place of separation from God.

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."⁶¹⁷ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."⁶¹⁸

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."⁶¹⁹

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;⁶²⁰ for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":⁶²¹

Born again, again

Candy writes of John 3:1-21:

Notice that you must be born of the water and of the Spirit. Jesus makes it clear that born of the water means physically born - the waters being the amniotic fluid in the womb. One must be physically born, before they can be born again. Born of the Spirit is being Born Again. There is no mention of baptism in the above scripture, for one isn't to get baptised before getting saved, only after, in obedience to Christ, but not for salvation. Since being born again is not baptism, it must be something else.

We discussed this when studying the 3rd chapter of St. John's gospel. Please read the full article, but here is the Cliff Notes version.

I think that if Candy takes such a literal interpretation of this verse, then she must rule out the possibility of salvation for those who are never physically born, i.e., those who are miscarried or aborted. Jesus does put being born of water as one of the two conditions for entering the kingdom of God.

It can also be a danger to put a significance on the order in which something is placed in scripture. One obvious case would be that Peter's name is always listed first in the lists of the apostles. Would Candy say that this is significant?

This verse supports that baptism and being born in Spirit through belief in Jesus is linked. This is found throughout the entire New Testament.

The first thing that Jesus does after speaking with Nicodemus is to begin baptizing in 3:22.

Why would Jesus say in John 3 that we should be born and believe, when He says everywhere else that we should be baptized and believe? Clearly, when unless you take the verse out of context of other verses, you should conclude that by "born of water" Jesus meant baptism.

You really can't get more clear than 1 Peter 3:21, which states "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

All other religions require one to DO something - rituals, works, sacraments, penance, and acts of self-righteousness. Yet, for the Christian, Jesus paid it ALL. Through Christ's spilt blood, anyone can gain entrance into heaven.

While Catholicism remains unnamed, rituals, works, sacraments, and penance are all code words used by Candy to allude to Catholicism. However, Catholicism does not teach that we are saved by any of these aspects.

CCC #161: Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

#169: Salvation comes from God alone

#1741: Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free." In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free." The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."

#620: Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (1 Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19).

#1427 It is by faith in the Gospel and by Baptism that one renounces evil and gains salvation, that is, the forgiveness of all sins and the gift of new life.

#2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"- reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.


Accepting, believing, and fully trusting in Christ's free gift of salvation is how one becomes born again - born of the Spirit.

Accepting, believing, and trusting are all verbs, or as they call them in schools now, action words. Candy's religion requires her to DO something, too. It places the burden of salvation on your action of accepting Christ.

I ask again, what role does God's grace play in salvation for Candy?

Infant Baptism Redux

If you were baptized as an infant, please understand that that did not save you. You have to be of an old enough age to understand that Jesus died on the cross to pay for your sins. If you didn't understand and believe on this before you were baptized, then your baptism was in truth, nothing more than your getting wet.

I have to second Elena on my appreciation for how repetitive Candy can be. We're three weeks into the homeschooling year at my house, and planning a big painting project this weekend. I'm glad to be able to say that we wrote about infant baptism previously here.

Still waiting for the promised article on where the Bible discusses the age of accountability. I see we have a few born again readers, if you can help me out on this, please leave a comment. I'm very curious about it.