Vain Repetition

Candy has once again reposted her Vatican Versus God article. She has mentioned previously that she is very proud of this article because she sent a lot of time doing research for it. Certainly, she is to be commended for actually looking over the Vatican's website rather than just cutting and pasting from Jesus Is Lord, the way that she usually does.

As Elena has mentioned, we have really covered all of these points already. However, as I have time this week, I'd like to add my thoughts on a few of them.

What really stood out to me when I read this was Candy's note on vain repetition:

Vatican says - "After a short pause for reflection, recite the "Our Father", ten "Hail Mary’s" and the "Glory be to the Father". reference 7

God says - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. -Matthew 6:7

My Notes: How would you like it, if your child came up to you, and said "you are a great mommy, you are a great mommy, you are a great mommy, you are a great mommy, you are a great mommy," over and over and over and over and over again? Now do you see why they are vain (AKA meaningless) repetitions?

What a reflection on her relationship with her children! Catholic apologists will often point out that you would NOT want your spouse or children to only tell you once that they love you, but you want to hear it over and over again.

This sort of repetition is very common for toddlers, and not at all meaningless. With each of my children, they have gone through a phase where we have the same conversation every morning that my husband goes to work. The child will ask over and over again, "Papa go to work? No, Papa not go to work, he stay home! Papa go to work? He be back later? He go to work but he be back after supper?" On and on, for about half an hour after my husband leaves, I will listen to this meaningful repetition and reassure the child that Papa loves him, and really will return.

In the same way, it is difficult for us humans, who see as though through a glass darkly, to full understand God. Repetition in the form of the Rosary is a way that we try to understand the "mysteries" of the Christian faith.

You can read our previous article on Vain Repetition here.

I would like to close by pointing you to a Psalm which reads very similar to Candy's example of meaningless repetition (King James Version, of course):

Psalm 136

¹O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

²O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

³O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

⁴To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.

⁵To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

⁶To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

⁷To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:

⁸The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:

⁹The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

¹⁰To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

¹¹And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:

¹²With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.

¹³To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:

¹⁴And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:

¹⁵But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.

¹⁶To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.

¹⁷To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

¹⁸And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

¹⁹Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:

²⁰And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:

²¹And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:

²²Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.

²³Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:

²⁴And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.

²⁵Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.

²⁶O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Candy versus the Vatican

In case we are having non-Catholic visitors because of Candy's latest post, I thought I would address some of the points that she raised, and give some additional resources.

First issue, the salvation of Muslims:
Vatican says - "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;

Candy's link takes you to the appropriate section of the Catechism, and that is worth reading. Another good read is the document Dominus Iesus.

Some relevant excerpts:

In fact, the truth of Jesus Christ, Son of God, Lord and only Saviour, who through the event of his incarnation, death and resurrection has brought the history of salvation to fulfilment, and which has in him its fullness and centre, must be firmly believed as a constant element of the Church's faith.

It must therefore be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith that the universal salvific will of the One and Triune God is offered and accomplished once for all in the mystery of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Son of God.

For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.

With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it “in ways known to himself”.

To summarize on that point, the Catholic Church teaches that salvation always comes through Jesus Christ, the one Mediator. If Muslims are saved, it will be because God somehow saved them through Jesus.

Next point: Vatican says - The Holy See Vatican says that the Catholic Church ("The Church") has the right to pass down traditions, and that these traditions hold as much water as the very Bible itself.

This is true. I have written about Sacred Tradition here.

Vatican says - That the Catholic Church canonizes saints.

I see no contradiction with the verses which Candy quotes, and in the Vatican position here. Candy mentioned in another article that the Catholic church creates saints. This is not true.

Canonization is an official recognition that a person is a saint. A saint is a Christian, who is in heaven. The Catholic Church teaches that we are all called to be saints, and also that those who are officially recognized (i.e., canonized) are only a small number of the many, many saints that have existed.

Vatican says - The Vatican repeatedly calls their pope "Holy Father."

Catholic Answers has a good rebuttal to this charge here.

Perhaps the most pointed New Testament reference to the theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests is Paul’s statement, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

Also, you can go to the Scripture Catholic website for many references to calling someone "father" in Scripture. A few excerpts:

Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 - elders of the Church are called "fathers." Therefore, we should ask the question, "Why don't Protestants call their pastors "father?"

1 Cor. 4:15 - Paul writes, "I became your father in Christ Jesus."

Philemon 10 - Paul says he has become the "father" of Onesimus.

Vatican says - "The members of the Rosary Sodality, therefore, do exceedingly well in weaving together, as in a crown, so many salutations and prayers to Mary."

I'm surprised that we haven't covered the communion of saints, and intercessory prayer yet. I'll save that for another post.

Vatican says - "Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself "in the middle," that is to say she acts as a mediatrix [mediator] not as an outsider, but in her position as mother."

The Catholic Catechism, paragraph #1544 states: Everything that the priesthood of the Old Covenant prefigured finds its fulfillment in Christ Jesus, the "one mediator between God and men." The Christian tradition considers Melchizedek, "priest of God Most High," as a prefiguration of the priesthood of Christ, the unique "high priest after the order of Melchizedek"; "holy, blameless, unstained," "by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified," that is, by the unique sacrifice of the cross.

Considering Mary as mediatrix does not negate Jesus as the One Mediator. This is a difference in understanding what is meant by mediatrix. When Catholics refer to Mary as Mediatrix, we saying that God entered the world through her. Jesus was physically born by a woman, and that woman was Mary. Because she cooperated with God, by saying yes to him, Jesus was able to enter the world.

Does this mean our salvation depends on her? No. But because she cooperated with God, God worked through her (mediated), and so she has been known from the earliest time of Christianity as Theotokos, or God-Bearer.

Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong gives a great answer to this question on his website.

God says - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. -Matthew 6:7

I covered vain repetition here.

Vatican says - [Catholics have a different set of 10 commandments than the ones God gave us in the Bible]

Elena talked about why protestants and Catholics differ on the 10 commandments here.

Vatican says - "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." - The Roman Catholic version of Genesis 3:15 Reference - The Roman Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible

From the New American Bible, the official Catholic Bible of the American Conference of Bishops Genesis 3:15 "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

The footnote reads "the passage can be understood as the first promise of a Redeemer for fallen mankind. The woman's offspring then is primarily Jesus Christ.

For a discussion of the Douay-Rheims translation difference, see This Rock.

Now, see, the difference between the Vatican and God isn't so great as it first appears, is it?

Vain repetition?

On Candy's God versus the Vatican page, she criticizes a number of issues with the Catholic church. The issue of "vain repetition" is very familiar to Catholics.

Vatican says - After a short pause for reflection, recite the "Our Father", ten "Hail Marys" and the "Glory be to the Father".

God says - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. -Matthew 6:7

If you read the entire chapter of Matthew 6, you can see in context that it is opposing men who seek to make themselves look superior in piety through their prayer practices. Focusing on the "repetitious" in verse 7 overlooks the word "vain" which is the true point.

I don't think that repetitious prayer in and of itself is forbidden or bad. We know from Revelation 4:8 that the angels in heaven "rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." I think praying the same words eternally is definitely repetitious!

Matthew 26:44 tells us that Jesus prayed three times in the garden, using the same words each time.

In Luke 18:13 the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying "God be merciful to me, a sinner." This prayer was pleasing to God, though he said the same words over and over.

Have you only prayed the Lord's Prayer once in your life, because the words would become meaningless if you said them again?

Another good example is Psalm 136, where "or his mercy endureth for ever" acts as a refrain. This is the Word of God, and it is very similar to the rosary in its repetition.

Often, the rosary is held up as the example of vain repetition. Praying the rosary, which is a devotion which is not required for Catholics, is a particular kind of prayer technique. The repetition of the "Hail Mary" prayer is supposed to keep one side of your brain busy, so that you can meditation on a Biblical "mystery" such as the crucifixion of Our Lord, without distraction. The repetition of the words is supposed to keep your mind from wandering, so that you can more fully meditate on the event from scripture.

Not only Catholics, and our familiar friends the Lutherans and Anglicans pray the rosary. The practice can be found among Methodists. John Wesley himself prayed the rosary, and one of his rosaries can be viewed at The Leys School, Cambridge. There are also several websites which feature protestant versions of the rosary.