Friday, October 10, 2008

A question to Jennie

The other posting ws getting  long in comments and I think we covered rather well how the Catholic church is similar to the early church.  Those points were countered, redirected and getting way off topic.  So here is a posting for a new related topic from Diana:

You mentioned that there are Roman Catholic doctrines that are contrary to scripture. Would you mind telling us your personal "top five" list of RC doctrines that are contrary to scripture (rather than just unmentioned by scripture such as the Immaculate Conception)? If you have the time, would you provide supporting Bible verses as well?
Thank you,
Diana (already looked at the Berean website) AddThis Social Bookmark Button


Sal said...

And could they please be doctrines (stuff we believe) instead of disciplines (stuff we do)?

Jennie said...

My family has several birthdays to celebrate this weekend, so we'll be out of town today and at church tomorrow.
Here is a portion of "A History of the Baptists" by
Thomas Armitage, 1890. It has shown me that I have
fallen into a trap by allowing you to set the rules,
namely that there has to be an unbroken lineage
from the Apostles to today in order for a church to be
legitimate. I myself knew this if I had allowed myself
to think about it, as I said myself that I consider my
spiritual heritage to be Baptist, though my physical
heritage is Catholic on one side. I became a child of
Abraham (Though I have no Jewish heritage) and a
child of God by being born again, not by virtue of the
Church, who cannot save anyone; only Christ, the
head of the church, can save anyone.

Galatians 3:6-11

I don't have a list of 5 contradictions that I carry around or one I have memorized and can spout off at the drop of a hat. I gave you the Berean Beacon site because it says it better and more completely than I can, as I am a mother and homemaker and homeschool teacher, not an apologist. As soon as I can, I'll comment.


Diana said...

I don't have a list of 5 contradictions that I carry around or one I have memorized and can spout off at the drop of a hat.

If you can't give at least one example at the drop of a hat, then you made an assertion that you personally can't support.

Basically, you are expecting the VTC ladies to try to defend against or be convinced by a very vague accusation.

Please do not accuse Catholics of believing contrary to scripture if you cannot give even one example. Catholics believe that all Catholic doctrine is faithful to scripture and that none is contrary. If you accept the "Berean" interpretation of scripture vs. the Catholic interpretation, that is your choice. However, I would admonish you to study both sides of the "argument" rather than only the one that seems right to you according to your presuppositions.

I looked over the Berean website. Most (if not all) of the controversial topics it brings up have been covered on VTC. Catholics do have a reason for believing what they do, which goes farther than just "taking the Pope's word for it". Catholic doctrine did not just pop out of some individual's mind. If you do a careful study of Catholic theology rather than limiting your research to (often faulty)anti-catholic websites, while you may not be convinced Catholicism is right, you will understand that it follows a very careful hermeneutic and that the doctrines are based in scripture. (Might not match with your interpretation of scripture, but hey...Calvinist interpretations don't match with Free-Will(ers) interpretations either).

Tracy said...

Well said Diana!!

Elena said...

that there has to be an unbroken lineage from the Apostles to today in order for a church to be legitimate.

But we're not arguing that point! In fact the Catholic Church teaches that the separated Protestant Churches do teach some aspects of the truth. We don't deny that. But we do not say that those churches per se are not legitimate Christian churches.

Interestingly, you are the one saying that the Catholic Church didn't come into existence until Constantine. So that must mean we have a shot at being legitimate!

not by virtue of the
Church, who cannot save anyone; only Christ, the
head of the church, can save anyone.

OK, but if you actually READ the scriptures, the way Christ has chosen to save, is through the church that He established. I didn't set it up that way - Christ did.

I don't have a list of 5 contradictions that I carry around or one I have memorized and can spout off at the drop of a hat.

I'm really not surprised. I don't think you actually know much about Catholicism other than what you have read from outside sources, such as Candy's blog. And that's why this blog exists, to teach and inform.

Jennie, please don't feel obligated to debate. It's hard to learn when you feel that you have to keep defending yourself. We are not attacking Protestantism. In fact I'd much rather you simply read and ask questions. There's no crime in that. Sometimes that is the best way to learn something new.

Jennie said...

Hello again Ladies;
As asked, I'd like to explain several issues about the Roman Catholic teachings that are not scriptural.

First I'll list them and then go back and elaborate on each one.
1. How to be saved
2. How to become holy
3. End times teaching-or lack of it
4. Mary is worshipped
5. A man as the head of the Church
6. Tradition equal with Scripture

1. How to be saved. The Catholic church teaches that a person is saved through baptism and the sacraments and works and cannot know if he is going to heaven:

“If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).

“If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).
“For it is the liturgy through which, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, 'the work of our redemption is accomplished,' and it is through the liturgy, especially, that the faithful are enabled to express in their lives and manifest to others the mystery of Christ and the real nature of the true Church” (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Introduction, para. 2).

“As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which 'Christ our Pasch is sacrificed' (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out” (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 1, 3, p. 324).

“... [Christ] also willed that the work of salvation which they preached should be set in train through the sacrifice and sacraments, around which the entire liturgical [ritualistic] life revolves. Thus by Baptism men are grafted into the paschal mystery of Christ. ... They receive the spirit of adoption as sons” (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Chap. 1, I, 5,6, pp. 23-24).

I would like to ask a question to see if you understand the biblical teaching about salvation: Do you or can you know for sure that you are going to heaven?

If you can't say yes, then you are not saved from your sins and do not understand salvation as the scriptures teach it.

The Bible teaches that we are saved when we hear the gospel and are convicted of our sins and believe on Jesus to save us and THEN are baptized:

And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved. Acts 2:21

"Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:37-39

Peter preaches to the household of
Cornelius (Acts 10:39-48):
"And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord."

Paul preaches Christ to the Jews in Antioch:
"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses." (Acts 13:38-39)

Paul preaches to the Jailor:
"And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household." (Acts 16:30-34)

Te Bible says that we are saved as
soon as we repent and believe in Jesus Christ
(Romans 10:9-10,13).
It is an immediate thing, and once
the transaction occurs--it is irreversible(unless we become apostate)(Romans 8:30, 35-39).

Also see:
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes
him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned,
he has crossed over from death to life (John 5:24).

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and
this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works,
so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life and
this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who
does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these
things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so
that you may know that you have eternal life (1 John 5:11-13).

The scriptures also teach that THE SACRIFICE OF CHRIST WAS FINISHED ONCE AND FOR ALL ON THE CROSS and no further sacrifice is needed:

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. (Colossians 2:11-15)

For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Hebrews 9:24-28)

And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
(Hebrews 10:11-18)

In conclusion, salvation was accomplished by Christ's death and no other sacrifice is necessary, including the Mass. The Lord's supper is a remembrance, not a re-sacrifice.
He said "It is finished!" on the cross, and now all we need to do is repent and believe, and the Holy Spirit comes and makes us a new creature. Then the work of sanctification begins as we study the Word and pray and worship with other believers.

I would like to write about the other points I listed later on, if you will permit.


Elena said...

One thing is disappointingly clear Jennie- you clearly haven't spent much time reading the archives.
1. Salvation

3. End times just recently covered by Kelly
4. Mary and and more Mary.
5. The pope read here and here

6. Tradition here, here and and here

We haven't done a "how to" of Catholic holiness, but I think we have enough on our plate from the above.

Jennie- this blog exists to counter and explain Catholicism as it is attacked and misrepresented on Candy's blog. This is not a general apologetics blog. So I think having countered your concerns and also considering I haven't seen a lot of effort on your part to actually read the articles that are already here, I think this thread is done.

Kelly said...

Jennie, as I've explained several times, I do not care for the Berean Beacon site because it misrepresents the Catholic position. The list of partial quotes which you provided is a good example of that.

You quoted from the 12th canon of the sixth session of the Council of Trent. Do you know what that document means? Is it still binding doctrine for Catholics today? Did you read the other canons?

Because the very first canon says:
CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

The Catholic Church teaches salvation by God's grace, and rejected salvation by faith alone because it rejected the role that God's grace plays in our salvation.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," (Rom. 3:24).

Jennie, do you believe that you are saved because of YOUR faith, or because of God's grace? What role do you believe grace plays in salvation?

Jennie said...

One of you asked me a question and I am attempting to answer it.
I'd like to know what people thought of it rather than just dismissing it without any debate.
If you can't answer it, just say so.
I have more to say if anyone is interested on the 5 other issues I listed.

I have read quite a bit of your archives, but I think alot of your defenses are just spin and don't really reflect the reality of day to day experience for many Catholics or the true historical record. If you remember, my family was and some still are Catholic, so I have experience and alot of reading about it from both sides. I attended mass as child and also with relatives when older, so I'm not ignorant about it.

Elena said...

If you can't answer it, just say so.

The question isn't can I answer it, but rather how many times will we have to? Gee whiz, we have a search function

I have more to say if anyone is interested on the 5 other issues I listed.

In which case I suggest taking it to your blog. General apologetics is not the purpose of this one.

Jennie said...

I believe exactly what Ephesians 2:8 says; faith is a gift of God freely given. We cannot make ourselves have faith nor can we save ourselves. God draws us to Himself because of His love and grace (undeserved favor to us).
Here are two messages on salvation written by my husband:

I did not quote from Berean Beacon.

The first canon of Trent quote is misleading. The Catholic church teaches that grace AND good works saves you, not grace INSTEAD of good works as the Apostles and reformers taught. Good works FOLLOW salvation, not lead to it.

Jennie said...

For some reason the whole address did not post.
If interested, the messages are at under bible studies; the newest ones listed.

Kelly said...

The first canon of Trent quote is misleading. The Catholic church teaches that grace AND good works saves you, not grace INSTEAD of good works as the Apostles and reformers taught. Good works FOLLOW salvation, not lead to it.

Truly, faith and works are intertwined, and many theological discussions and disagreements have taken place trying to weigh out where one ends and the other begins.

James 2:20, "...that faith without works is dead."

Now, if you would like to tell me that you are aware of what the Catholic Church really teaches, instead of this misleading Council of Trent stuff, then please use the searchable online Catholic Catechism (our statement of faith) to prove your point:

I link to Lutheran sites for Lutheran doctrine, Seventh Day Adventist sites for SDA doctrine, and I expect official Catholic sources for Catholic doctrine.

Jennie said...

Will anyone answer my question:
Do you or can you know if you are going to heaven?
The bible says in 1 John 5:13 that you can know that you have eternal life.

Elena said...

Catholic theology on salvation.

Diana said...

Do you or can you know for sure that you are going to heaven?
If you can't say yes, then you are not saved from your sins and do not understand salvation as the scriptures teach it.

This is an opinion, derived from one of many interpretations regarding salvation. For example, not all protestants believe this, the Nazarenes for one. How do you know your interpretation is the right one? BTW, Catholics do not obey Christ (what you would call "works") out of fear for their salvation. They do it out of love for Christ and a desire to imitate Him.

It might help you to think of faith as a coin. A coin has two sides. Like a coin, faith has two sides: belief & works. One without the other does not equal faith. Abraham would not be in the "Hall of Faith" in Hebrews if he had only believed in his heart that God would save Isaac. He had to do the actual "work" of obeying God by lifting the knife. This is the Catholic view. If we have true faith, we have works.

The scriptures also teach that THE SACRIFICE OF CHRIST WAS FINISHED ONCE AND FOR ALL ON THE CROSS and no further sacrifice is needed:

Here is where your lack of knowledge concerning Catholicism has you making a false assumption about it. CATHOLICS BELIEVE THIS. During Mass, we are not "re"-sacrificing Christ or making another sacrifice. We are mystically entering into his once-for-all sacrifice on the cross.

In conclusion, salvation was accomplished by Christ's death and no other sacrifice is necessary, including the Mass.

To be clear, I'll say it again: the Mass is participating in the one and only sufficient sacrifice of Christ of 2000yrs ago. It is not a new sacrifice or a re-sacrifice.

The Bible teaches that we are saved when we hear the gospel and are convicted of our sins and believe on Jesus to save us and THEN are baptized:

Is this an argument against infant baptism? Many protestants baptize their babies (Presbyterians for example) because they follow the covenental interpretation of scripture. So, again, this is a matter of interpretation (no way for you to tell if you are right or not).

Also, in case this is what you are saying, Catholics do not believe that baptism automatically saves someone for eternity. No Catholic can rely on his infant baptism (or adult baptism) as a "ticket to heaven". While Catholics believe that Grace is dispensed through baptism (as with the other sacraments), it is also a part of the journey of obedience and love.

Te Bible says that we are saved as soon as we repent and believe in Jesus Christ
(Romans 10:9-10,13).
It is an immediate thing, and once
the transaction occurs--it is irreversible(unless we become apostate)(Romans 8:30, 35-39).

Also see:...........

No Catholic will dispute the importance of these verses. However,Catholic (and some protestant) theology does not come to the same conclusion about what is meant in these verses as you have subscribed to.

It is an immediate thing

What is an immediate thing in your opinion? Until we are in heaven we are not 100% saved from the evils of our flesh or this world.

The Catholic's view is that God gives us the grace to continue on our heavenward journey. Grace comes to us in many ways, some of which include the sacraments of communion, baptism, etc.

former protestant who read her Bible right into the Catholic Church

Kelly said...

Jennie, I have answered question after question for you, providing information on Catholic doctrine and Scripture citations for reference. You have ignored every single response of mine, and changed the subject to some new topic.

I am happy to answer questions about Catholicism for no other reason than to promote understanding and out of my love of the faith.

However, I do not need you to save me, because Jesus has already done that.

If you have any further sincere questions about Catholic beliefs and practices, let me know. Otherwise, I really have better uses for my small amount of internet time than recreating the wheel of what is necessary for salvation.

Thanks for visiting, and I appreciate your polite tone.

Jennie said...

I have responded to every comment you have made, and have not ignored you.
I cannot agree with some of it and have trouble believing that the overall teaching agrees with scripture. I guess I struggle because there is so much in the structure and hierarchy of the Catholic church that is a blatant disobedience to scripture, now and in the past. I worry that the scripture teaching is only in response to criticism and is still contradicted by opposite teaching in other places.(I can't get past the torture and execution of honest believers over many centuries. Why were men like Wycliffe and Tyndale hounded and killed; honorable Godly men, who wanted to give scripture to the people of England? Where did Christ command that when people don't convert that you torture them to get their forced confession and then kill them if they refuse? I know the governments were complicit in this but the church exerted control over governments and the priests carried out and oversaw everything)
I see that you use scripture, but I don't see that the church overall has done a good job of teaching her people how to be saved or how to follow Christ. The information is there, but I think most catholics are clueless because the church has failed to teach them and has also obscured the teaching with so much other stuff that gets in the way, such as beliefs about Mary and works and mysticism. Many catholics think all they have to do is go to mass and go to confession and then hope they are forgiven, but have no knowledge of God and no care for holiness.
That is my worry about catholics and baptists and anyone else, that the church (all church groups) have utterly failed to know and pass on the truth of scripture.
Baptists or other evangelicals, as you seem to know, have 'taught' a false gospel of easy believism, by which you say a prayer and are 'saved' and then they seem to think they can live any way they want. All have failed.
If you have looked at and read my husbands bible studies, you will see his passion for this and his faithfulness to scripture. We believe that works are essential after salvation, but can't save you.
I hope that you and many catholics are truly saved. If you understand that you are sinners saved by grace and have been converted to Christ (not just to the Church) and become a new creature then God knows your heart. I think there are saved catholics, but I think they are few; I think there are saved Baptists, but I fear they are few as well.
I really care about these things, especially because some of my family is catholic and I don't see a stiving after holiness in them; I worry that they are not converted.

Jennie said...

The Bible says that we can know we are going to heaven and says those people in Acts were 'saved,' not that they were 'being saved.'
If you are not being taught that, then you are not being taught the whole truth.

I agree with you about faith and works going hand in hand, but emphasize that faith must always come first and then produce works.

Here is a page from EWTN taken from a catechism:
In #356 it says "...and renewing for all time the sacrifice of the cross." Christ's sacrifice is sufficient and doesn't have to be renewed. I think this takes away from the understanding that His work is finished on the cross.


Barbara C. said...


I understand your concern for those around you. We all want to be able to see the ones we love get to heaven. And as you have noted, there are those who believe but do not live their lives as believers. They compartmentalize their belief for Christ on Sunday morning. This has little to do with which denomination they belong to. There are people in every denomination who just go through the motions. But you have to think that they are at least in a better position then those who have just given up on God.

As Catholics we contend that nothing in the Church goes against scripture. However, the Church offers extra context for correctly interpreting the scripture. And despite what some might say about the "plain understanding" of scripture, whenever someone turns to any Bible commentary they are doing the same thing.

As for "torture" of poor innocent men by Catholics as an indictment against Catholicism, if you want to go there then why don't we just say "Forget religion. Look at how many people have been killed in the name of God." Obviously, there is more to the story than what detractors of Catholicism or religion in general would have you to believe. Not to say that there weren't bad people who considered themselves Christian involved. And persecution has gone both ways between Catholics and Protestants over the years. That doesn't mean that either one was right.

One of the major tenants of Catholicism, though, is that we are weak human beings. We make mistakes. That's why we need the Sacraments, as tools of God's grace get us back on track.

As for the whole worshiping Mary thing, that is just ridiculous. I remember the first time I was questioned about that from a Southern Baptist friend, I actually thought he was joking. I don't think most lapsed Catholics would ever consider themselves as having worshiped Mary no matter how ignorant they are about Catholicism in general.

I think we also have to be very careful about judging someone else's holiness no matter what their denomination. We don't know what inner struggles they are having, only God can see into a person's heart.

Kelly said...

I agree that our Church is full of sinners. Correct doctrines and adherence to Scripture has always been taught, but many times men have fallen short.

This is the case, as you seem to agree, in all churches. I have many relatives who are not Catholic, nor were even raised Catholic (my husband is a convert) and they all feel that as long as they usually go to church and live a good life, they will go to heaven. That is the feel good gospel of today.

Many times the faith is proclaimed, but as in the parable of the sower, it does not fall on fertile soil. My brother received the same mediocre teaching that I did, and while I grasped some of basic doctrines of Catholicism, my brother had no idea that Catholics believed in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

Like so many, he has left the Catholic Church and now claims to be a saved Baptist. He's usually sleeping off a party on Sunday morning, rather than in any church service, so I'm not sure leaving the Catholic Church has benefited him much at all.

Regarding the common claim of atrocities by the Church, that is again, a reason why one should not put their faith in men. Such atrocities are not contained to Catholicism, so they point to the flaws of human nature rather than of the Catholic Church in particular.

I addressed this issue here:

You can read my history of the persecution (including murder) of Catholics in America here:

Kelly said...

From the KJV, in case you are KJV only.

We HAVE BEEN saved by grace:
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

We ARE BEING saved
1 Cor 1:18, above.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)- Ephesians 2:5

We WILL BE saved:
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved - Matt 10:22

We HOPE to be saved:
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? - Romans 8:24

That is, if we endure to the end with a living faith.

Jennie said...

From what you have said I can hope and believe that you are saved, if you have become a new creature in Christ.
But my reservations still stand about the church overall.
I will keep reading.

I am not KJV only. I use the New King James and use the KJV sometimes.

I would like to discuss the end times some more somewhere though you have talked about it some recently. I think it is important to see the signs of the times in order to prepare our hearts for what is to come and be sure we are in Christ.
I think the time is very short before Christ will return.