Tuesday, October 16, 2007

I Really Need To Tell You This

I know I'm a little late on this one, but I wanted to add a few more points on Candy's latest effort to convert the Catholics to Christianity.

First, I will agree that Candy's tone is much nicer in this one. I didn't even notice her calling us satanists once, which is always a good courtesy to observe.

The RC led ecumenical movement has fooled many Christians into believing that Roman Catholicism is just another denomination of Christianity. Yet, when one looks at the basic fundamentals of the beliefs of the RCC and of the common Christian church, it is obvious that the two are two very different religions.

I am very curious as to what Candy means here by "the common Christian church."

At its basic, Christianity is a belief that we are saved by God's grace, through our faith in Jesus Christ, as is manifest by our works. Other core beliefs might be "basics" such as the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, and a literal Resurrection of Jesus.

If you take things a step further and look at what we call "historic" Christianity, you find a belief in Original Sin, Baptism for the remission of sins, infant baptism (to remove the stain of Original Sin), and a belief in sacraments, though the number of sacraments varies. In this group of historic Christians, you may include the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, and Presbyterians.

I believe that it is Candy's religion which is out of the norm of "the common Christian church." I'm not saying that her salvation is in danger, but that by rejecting the doctrine of Original Sin, rejecting the view that Baptism is more than a symbol, and by denying that any sacraments exist, you are outside the norm of Christianity.

You see, the RCC's teaching of purgatory is only a partial truth. Purgatory is more accurately what the Bible calls "outer darkness." . . . The problem with outer darkness (or, what RC's call "purgatory,") is that there is a way out, but only ONE exit - Judgment Day. All inhabitants of the outer darkness will be found to NOT have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life, and they will then be found guilty.

I have already written on Purgatory here. But I thought I would share a few scripture verses which indicate that there are more than two options after death. Hell is surely a place where you cannot leave, correct? And no one would need to be set free from Heaven. So if verses indicated people being released from a place, then were would it be but purgatory?

Zechariah 9:11 "As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water."

Ephesians 4:8-10 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:19-20 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

1 Corinthians 15:29 "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

Why would the early Christians be baptized for the dead if the dead are either in Heaven or Hell? This verse is also a clear indicator that our actions can have an impact on the dead.

Also worth a look are these:

Philippians 2:10-11 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Revelation 5:3 "And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon."

Revelation 5:13 "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

If God refuses to receive prayer, praise, and worship from the unrepentant sinner, why would he permit the damned to undertake this practice? In these verses, "under the earth" would not refer to those in Hell, but in purgatory.

You are saved (not "being saved") by faith, not by Mary, rites, Eucharist, mass, works ("good deeds"), rituals, or traditions.

Certainly all Catholics will agree with Candy here. I think that Candy would be more effective at trying to convert Catholics if she had even a basic understanding of Catholic doctrine. I quoted the Catholic Catechism here, showing that we are in agreement with Candy on this one. I answered her next point about Mary being called Mediatrix there at the same time.

Jesus hates the traditions of the Roman Catholic church. We know this because of how much He hated the traditions of the religious people who were around at His time on this earth, the Pharisees.

You can read my Defense of Sacred Tradition here.

As I've said before, if being saved means believing that we are saved though God's grace, through our faith in Jesus Christ, as is manifest by our works, then Candy need not fear for the salvation of Catholics. However, if being saved means believing that PLUS rejecting the Catholic Church, then it isn't really being saved by faith ALONE, is it?


Annie C said...

I thought of this anaolgy this morning, had to put it somewhere, and this looks like a good post for it.

To me the difference between grace alone and grace with works is like two children getting their allowance. The Father hands out the allowance to any of His children who ask for it, this is true. The "christian" takes the money, says "Thanks, Dad" and wanders off to do what he wants. The Catholic child takes the money and says "Thanks, Dad. Now, what can I do to help you out?" And then they go wash the car or mow the lawn out of gratitude.

Now, I'm not a parent, but when the time comes for that parent to write out His will and hand out His inhteritance, which child is he going to remember, the one who helped him get His work done or the one who just took the money and wandered off to play?

Rachel said...

I have been giving this a lot of thought. Why do non-Catholics say was feel our good works will get us into Heaven? It's not a ticket or a prize won. Wouldn't you do good works regardless?

So they never: helped someone, brought someone a meal, donatee items, give monetary donations, read to someone, sit with someone, be a friend, babysit, I could go on and on. I'm stumped. I don't do it to get me into heaven, I do it because it pleases God and makes me feel good inside. Why wouldn't everyone do good works? Works does not mean start a mission, build an orphanage, give millions of dollars.


31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal

Just my thoughts. Thanks for listening.

Milehimama said...

A point to ponder:
My husband was a Southern Baptist - of the type who reject being called Protestants. Very, very fundamentalist.

He believed that there was the General Judgement - at the end of the world. He was a little fuzzy on the details of what happened between death and the end of the world. You can't automatically assume ANY words you use have the same meaning.

The reason that they are so stringently against "works" is because to admit that ANY "work" is necessary negates the whole notion of sola fide - or more specifically, Eternal Security.

On the other hand, it did get some of my husband's friends to leave me alone - once I got them to admit that I was probably saved, well, there was nothing in their view that could take away my salvation - not even becoming Catholic.

I wonder if Candy's view is that once saved, always saved?

Kelly said...

Yes, Candy has said before that she believes in once saved always saved, and I believe she indicated that in this pieces as well. She wrote something link "We ARE saved, not are BEING saved."

Perplexity said...


I have thought of this often. Does being saved mean someone should not do good works? Why can't someone be saved AND do works? What is it about being saved that removes works from life? I never have, and never will, understand that way of thinking.

Whether one is dependent on the other or not doesn't seem overly relevant, not in the big picture at least. If one is saved, that is great. But, if one gives of him or herself, does that undo them having been saved?

I, for one, think that giving of yourself to and for others is one of the keys to happiness and success HERE ON EARTH. We are put here for a reason; not solely to be saved after our physical life. There is some master plan, some purpose for us being on this planet and existing. Why would we exist in this life if our only purpose is to be saved for the next?

THIS life has relevance. THIS life is important, and helping others get through this life is one of the best ways to help ourselves get through it.

As I said, I have never, ever understood the concept that works is "not right". Whether works are part of being saved or not, in and of themselves, they are a very relevant, important, valid part of this life.

You do not have to dedicate every single aspect of your life to God in order to please him. You can dedicate yourself to helping others, in whatever way possible, while living the best life you know how. Whether it is in going to work or not going to work; sending your kids to school or not; donating money, but better yet, donating your time; going to church three times a week, or once, or once a month and keeping your faith at home.

Perplexity said...

Even after posting my response, I didn’t feel satisfied, so to speak. Something was still niggling at the back of my brain. I reread the post several times and finally realized what it was/is.

Jesus hates the traditions of the Roman Catholic church. We know this because of how much He hated the traditions of the religious people who were around at His time on this earth, the Pharisees.

Jesus “hates”? Where is her unquestionable proof, from the Bible, that Jesus hates? That he hates anyone or anything? Candy is projecting her feelings onto Jesus, plain and simple. She is hiding behind Jesus in attempts to again claim things that are false.

Hate is a strong, final emotion. It is not to be taken lightly under the best of circumstances. For her to claim Jesus hated something simply because she did is heinous.

A couple quotes come to mind as I ponder this and try to wrap my brain around it.

“The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”

Georgia Harkness

And, my favorite, which I actually keep taped to the fridge; it is also the first thing I thought of when I realized what was bothering me so much about Candy’s post.

"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."

Anne Lamott

Kelly said...

That is an awesome quote, perplexity!

Rachel said...

You know how someone can tell you something and it just stick with you? Your post about THIS life and what our existance is in it reminded me of this.

Ever watch Everybody Loves Raymond? In one episode their little girl asked why we were on earth. If we just went to Heaven, why did we have to stop here first? Good question! For some reason this question stuck with me.

Then one day, my MIL sent me an email and in it she said everyone was here to love. LOVE was the greatest thing we could do during our time on earth. This, too, stuck in my head. Love.

My husband went on a business trip and came home with the "bible" from the hotel room. I'm flipping through it and there are some suggested readings in the front. One is titled The Greatest Commandment. Hmm.. Matthew 22:36-40

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Love God and love your neighbor.


Just think if everyone did this? If everything you did was out of love and because of love?

We often pray for world peace. It starts with LOVE. :)

I'm just having one of those reflecting days.

Faithful Catholic said...

The old Baltimore Catechism from first grade keeps popping into my head as I read these comments.

Q: Who made me?
A: God made me.
Q: Why did God make me?
Q: God made me to know Him, love Him and serve Him in this world and be with Him forever in the next.

If we know Him, we will also see Him in others. If we love Him, we will also love others in whom we see Him. If we serve Him, we will also serve others in whom we see Him. I think the heart of "works" is loving and serving others. What could possibly be wrong with that? Not one thing. I don't care what anyone says, I believe He requires that of us.

Perplexity, those really are great quotes. Thanks for sharing them.