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Showing posts with label Whore of Babylon. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Whore of Babylon. Show all posts

Monday, August 3, 2009

Once more with the Whore of Babylon

Today we find that believing that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon is an essential part of who Candy is.

I firmly believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon, spoken of in Revelation 17. I believe all religions, with the exception of Biblical Christianity, have a part in the Whore.

That's a bit sad, but not really surprising. Just a reminder that we have all the "Catholic Church is NOT the Whore of Babylon" posts that anyone could ever want.

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Thursday, July 9, 2009

Pope One World Government

I'll post more on Caritas in Veritate as I get the time. Here is a good start.

Newspapers, blogs, talk-shows on radio and television are full of discussion over Pope Benedict XVI's supposed call for a "new world order" or a "one-world government." These ideas are, however, neither based in reality nor a clear reading of the Pope's latest encyclical, Caritas in Veritate, the release of which yesterday spawned the heated discussion.

The Pope actually speaks directly against a one-world government, and, as would be expected from those who have read his previous writings, calls for massive reform of the United Nations. Confusion seems to have come from paragraph 67 of the encyclical, which has some choice pull-quotes which have spiced the pages of the world's news, from the New York Times to those of conspiracy theorist bloggers seeing the Pope as the Anti-Christ.






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Saturday, March 14, 2009

Back In The Saddle Again

New readers to Candy's blog (which is looking more like a blog and less like a website every day) might wonder why Candy didn't have time to elaborate on her Titus 2 Notebook idea yesterday, but has an extremely long article on the rapture up today. Which would be more of a help to a homemaker? However, long-time readers will recognize that this is a recycling of several of her previously written articles. She had done a little editing, though.

First, the disclaimer is quite new. Candy says:

DISCLAIMER: I most certainly am not inerrant. The following article is just what I've so far found from my personal Bible studies...

This is quite a departure from Candy's normal lack of humility on Biblical interpretation. For example, in a letter to the pastor of an IFB church, she wrote:

I learned about proper doctrine from none other but the Bible. I've read through the Bible over 18 times (KJV). I didn't learn doctrine from church, religious upbringing, or other forms of religious teaching. I never went to church until at the age of 17, when I got saved. I refuse to believe man, unless that man be Christ Himself. I fancy myself to be like a Berean; I test everything against scripture. Since I have no previous religious teaching, I have an advantage. I don't have specific doctrines taught to me by man, but only what I got from the Bible.

Kudos to Candy for the change. Half of our disagreements with Candy stem from her habit of insisting that everything she writes is FACT! and not her personal opinion.

Now, she does recycle this tired old bit of "truth":

I dare say that some religions worship Semiramis and Baal under the names Mary and Jesus. You can tell the false Mary and Jesus from the real ones, via the way the people worship. For example, are they bowing down to statues and figurines of Mary? Are these people praying to Mary as the "mediatrix," instead of to God, in Jesus' name? Jesus is the one and only Mediator - 1 Timothy 2:5.

I guess she still hasn't gotten around to reading our Something About Mary article which would clear up her confusion about Mary's role as mediatrix.

Further down, she discusses the Middle Eastern peace treaty, the abomination of desolation, and the antichrist. Notice the utter lack of reference to the Catholic Church (though it is alluded to in some of the previous paragraphs):

The "he" that will plant the tabernacle of his palace in the glorious holy mountain is the antichrist. This is mentioning the same thing as Daniel 9:27, which is called the "abomination of desolation," elsewhere in scripture. The "trouble" (AKA Jacob's Trouble) is mentioned as happening after the palace is planted in the glorious mountain. Hence, we see that the time being discussed in the above passage is again the middle of the tribulation/peace treaty.

Contrast this with some of her previous statements:

(October 2008)
Russia has laid out the introduction. They have made the way open for the Pope to step in and be the ecumenical, council of religions "hero."

And, of course, the Pope needs to get in on the action, because the Roman Catholic ecumenical church will likely be the head of the whore:

"The Pope's leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

'We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your [Mary's] heart,' the text of the prayer reads.


(April 2008)
I recently finished reading the Bible again. Every time through, I'm just shocked when I read Revelation chapter 17. Who/what could that chapter be discussing?

The Whore of Babylon sits over a city. That city sits atop 7 hills, and is under a strong religious influence. There is only one city that fits this description, and that is Rome.


We also read of the Whore (the religious system) being drunk on the blood of saints (the Bible tells us that another word for Christian is saint). Certainly many Christians have been killed from Muslims, but more so from the Roman Catholic Church. For example, Pope Innocent killed 70,000 Christians in one day, - that is more than all of the Caesars of Rome put together.

During the Inquisition and burnings, Christians were killed because they refused to convert to Roman Catholicism. This is not Christian or Christ like. Christ said that after you've told someone the Gospel message, if they don't accept it, you are to just shake the dust off of your feet and move on. To see an example of historical religious killings, by Roman Catholics killing Christians, watch the movie Elizabeth (the first one is the best). . .

This is another reason why Roman Catholicism sounds like it's the Whore of Babylon. What other religion out there is VERY big, has a foothold in most nations, proclaims itself to be Christian, yet teaches doctrines at enmity with the Bible, and has real Christians within it, that need to "come out of her?" I only know of one religion that fits the bill, and that is Roman Catholicism.

(July 2007)
The new Pope (Vicar of Christ - the Greek roots of 'vicar' is "ante", AKA Greek Vicar of Christ = antichrist) proclaimed the other day that you are saved ONLY by being a member of the Roman Catholic church. Of course, anyone who has read his or her Bible knows that that is not true.

Well, I could keep quoting Candy saying that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon and the Pope is the Antichrist all day, but my baby will be awake soon, so I'll stop there. My point is, she DIDN'T say that this time, and she easily could have. I could have seen this on any number of fundamentalist homemaker sites, and while it isn't correct, it isn't as over the top as Candy normally is.

Now that I've said that, she'll probably bring out her big guns, but Candy, don't take it as a personal challenge. It isn't. It's me saying, good job learning from your mistakes. I don't agree with your theology, but thanks for toning down the personal attacks.

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Saturday, November 22, 2008

The Pope and the End Times

What do Catholics believe about the end times is a popular question here. I found that the Pope, who has been speaking a lot about St. Paul for the Pauline Year, devoted his November 12th general audience to Paul's writings on the parusia, or return of Jesus. The entire audience is available here, but I'm quoting some relevant parts:

And now, after examining the various aspects of the expectation of Christ's parusia, let us ask ourselves: what are the basic convictions of Christians as regards the last things: death, the end of the world? Their first conviction is the certainty that Jesus is Risen and is with the Father and thus is with us forever. And no one is stronger than Christ, for he is with the Father, he is with us. We are consequently safe, free of fear. This was an essential effect of Christian preaching. Fear of spirits and divinities was widespread in the ancient world. Today too, missionaries alongside many good elements in natural religions encounter fear of the spirits, of evil powers that threaten us. Christ lives, he has overcome death, he has overcome all these powers. We live in this certainty, in this freedom, and in this joy. This is the first aspect of our living with regard to the future.

The second is the certainty that Christ is with me. And just as the future world in Christ has already begun, this also provides the certainty of hope. The future is not darkness in which no one can find his way. It is not like this. Without Christ, even today the world's future is dark, and fear of the future is so common. Christians know that Christ's light is stronger and therefore they live with a hope that is not vague, with a hope that gives them certainty and courage to face the future.

Lastly, their third conviction is that the Judge who returns at the same time as Judge and Saviour has left us the duty to live in this world in accordance with his way of living. He has entrusted his talents to us. Our third conviction, therefore, is responsibility before Christ for the world, for our brethren and at the same time also for the certainty of his mercy. Both these things are important. Since God can only be merciful we do not live as if good and evil were the same thing. This would be a deception. In reality, we live with a great responsibility. We have talents, and our responsibility is to work so that this world may be open to Christ, that it be renewed. Yet even as we work responsibly, we realize that God is the true Judge. We are also certain that this Judge is good; we know his Face, the Face of the Risen Christ, of Christ crucified for us. Therefore we can be certain of his goodness and advance with great courage.






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Monday, October 6, 2008

The Tribulation



The tribulation, or the rapture are not topics which Catholics hear much about. Often one of Candy's posts on this topic will have Catholics scratching their heads, because they have no idea what she is talking about. Do Catholics believe this, or not?

We have done several posts on the end times here at VTC, mostly centering around the identity of the Whore of Babylon, for obvious reasons. Elena has these on the sidebar, or you can choose the "Whore of Babylon" tag at the bottom of this post.

This post gives several resources for how the early Christians interpreted Revelation.

Joy at Coffee With Candy has a series on the end times, as well.

As far as I have been able to tell, the Catholic Church is amillenial, meaning we do not believe that all of these things which Candy says are going to happen, will happen. There will be a time of tribulation, and then Jesus will return.

From Catholic Answers:

The amillennial view interprets Revelation 20 symbolically and sees the millennium not as an earthly golden age in which the world will be totally Christianized, but as the present period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on the earth through his Church. This was the view of the Protestant Reformers and is still the most common view among traditional Protestants, though not among most of the newer Evangelical and Fundamentalist groups.

Amillennialists also believe in the coexistence of good and evil on earth until the end. The tension that exists on earth between the righteous and the wicked will be resolved only by Christ’s return at the end of time. The golden age of the millennium is instead the heavenly reign of Christ with the saints, in which the Church on earth participates to some degree, though not in the glorious way it will at the Second Coming.

Amillennialists point out that the thrones of the saints who reign with Christ during the millennium appear to be set in heaven (Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4, 11:16) and that the text nowhere states that Christ is on earth during this reign with the saints.

They explain that, although the world will never be fully Christianized until the Second Coming, the millennium does have effects on earth in that Satan is bound in such a way that he cannot deceive the nations by hindering the preaching of the gospel (Rev. 20:3). They point out that Jesus spoke of the necessity of "binding the strong man" (Satan) in order to plunder his house by rescuing people from his grip (Matt. 12:29). When the disciples returned from a tour of preaching the gospel, rejoicing at how demons were subject to them, Jesus declared, "I saw Satan fall like lightning" (Luke 10:18). Thus for the gospel to move forward at all in the world, it is necessary for Satan to be bound in one sense, even if he may still be active in attacking individuals (1 Pet. 5:8).

This section of the Catechism deals with "From thence He shall come again to judge the living and the dead":

IN BRIEF

680 Christ the Lord already reigns through the Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him. The triumph of Christ's kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.

681 On Judgment Day at the end of the world, Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the course of history.

682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.



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Friday, May 30, 2008

Dave Hunt's A Woman Rides The Beast

Edit: As we've now had more of a Woman Rides The Beast post from Candy, I thought I'd bump this up the page.

I see that while Candy reports she has read a few more chapters of A Woman Rides The Beast, she hasn't posted specifically about it yet. Because there are many great Catholic resources available about this book, I thought I would include them all in a post, for future reference.

A Look At Dave Hunt, Leading Anti-Catholic Fundamentalist:

Rome is ever at the center of Hunt's thoughts. According to Hunt, the Catholic Church will play a crucially villainous role in uniting all the world's religions in the service of the anti-Jewish and totalitarian Antichrist. By that time, the true Christians will have been raptured into heaven; the Jews in Israel will then return to the center of the historical stage. The Antichrist will turn against the Whore of Babylon (the Catholic Church and her allies) and destroy her. Then the Jews will recognize Christ at last, and Christ will come on the clouds to establish His millennial Kingdom in Jerusalem. Such are the end times, according to Dave Hunt.

Strangely, Hunt is zealous in defending the Protestant Reformation but does not realize that his own emphasis on "deciding for Christ" inescapably implies the possibility of co-operating with the grace of justification — a possibility the Reformers constantly condemned but upon which the Catholic Church insists. Also, dispensationalism's radical distinction between Law and Grace, and its choice for the latter over the former, is implicitly an invitation to a lawless or antinomian spirit among Christians. Some dispensationalists even say that the Ten Commandments are not meant for gentile Christians in the present age. For this the dispensationalists are condemned as heretics by real Calvinists such as the late John Gerstner, who called dispensationalism "spurious Calvinism and dubious evangelicalism." Gerstner saw that the Church-Israel dichotomy caused dispensationalists to "retreat into a hyper-spiritual Gnosticism which spurns the structures of the visible church which God has graciously given His people."



A rebuttal of Mr. Hunt's statistics on the Spanish Inquisition:

James Hitchcock, a professor of history at St. Louis University, summarizes the conclusions of the best of modern Inquisition studies:

(1) The inquisitors tended to be professional legists and bureaucrats who adhered closely to rules and procedures rather than to whatever personal feelings they may have had on the subject.

(2) Those rules and procedures were not in themselves unjust. They required that evidence be presented, allowed the accused to defend themselves, and discarded dubious evidence.

(3) Thus in most cases the verdict was a "just" one in that it seemed to follow from the evidence.

(4) A number of cases were dismissed, or the proceedings terminated at some point, when the inquisitors became convinced that the evidence was not reliable.

(5) Torture was only used in a small minority of cases and was allowed only when there was strong evidence that the defendant was lying. In some instances there is no evidence of the use of torture.

(6) Only a small percentage of those convicted were executed -- at most one or two percent in a given region. Many more were sentenced to life in prison, but this was often commuted after a few years. The most common punishment was some form of public penance.

(7) The dreaded Spanish Inquisition in particular has been grossly exaggerated. It did not persecute millions of people, as is often claimed, but approximately 44,000 between 1540 and 1700, of whom less than two percent were executed.


Catholic Answer's Hunting The Whore of Babylon:

Some anti-Catholics claim the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. Dave Hunt, in his 1994 book, A Woman Rides the Beast, presents nine arguments to try to prove this. His claims are a useful summary of those commonly used by Fundamentalists, and an examination of them shows why they don’t work.


Apparently, Candy's claim that Vicar of Christ = Anti-Christ originates from A Woman Rides The Beast. Biblical Truths For Baptists takes apart the origins:

Recall that in New Testament Greek, the principle meaning of the prefix 'anti-' is "against". Hence, the Greek 'antichristos' is translated as "opposed to the messiah". There is a secondary meaning of the Greek 'anti-', which connotes "substitution" or "correspondence". If you think that this is the meaning implied in Antichrist as used in the Bible (in the Iohannine epistles), then you are probably an antichrist yourself, as the text makes it clear that an antichrist is "opposed" to Christ, not His equivalent.

The Latin equivalent for the Greek prefix 'anti-' is, in fact, 'anti-'. That is because the Latin prefix 'anti-' is a direct loan-word from the Greek. Thus, the Latin translation of 'antichristos' is 'antichristus'.

In Latin, however, 'vicarius' is an adjective meaning "that which supplies the place of." Hence, the noun 'vicarius' means "substitute, proxy, place-holder, vicar," etc.,. The root of this word is 'vicis', "alternate".

The Greek equivalent of the Latin 'vicis' is 'eiko'. Hence, the Latin phrase 'vicarius Christi' might be literally translated into Greek as 'eikon Christou', or "icon of Christ," though I suppose a more apt translation might be found.


A book called Bearing False Witness?: An Introduction To The Christian Countercult by Douglas E. Cowan has some interesting sections on Dave Hunt and his writings. I don't think I'm permitted to excerpt from there, so I'll refrain. Look around page 165 for the Hunt section.


I couldn't resist including a link to the conversion story of Mark Connell, who credits Dave Hunt with leading him to the Catholic Church:

Every evening, my grudge against the Church was edged toward full-blown hatred as I reveled in the writings of professional anti-Catholics such as Dave Hunt and James G. McCarthy. Many a dark night slipped by as I continually "let the sun go down on my anger." Woe to the unprepared Catholic that crossed my path at this time! Woe to my Catholic family members! McCarthy and Hunt’s books allowed me to build an air tight case against the Church, but it seems that I never considered that if air could not get in or out, neither could the Light. And so, in the darkness of my prejudice, I grew as a misshapen plant. I bore bitter fruit on twisted branches. . .

I started reading "A Woman Rides the Beast" for a second time, but this time something was different. Whereas in the past this book made me feel smug about my escape from the "Whore of Babylon," it now caused my case to collapse in ruins. This book is so internally inconsistent and mean spirited, that I could only shake when I read it again. If Hunt had written in the same manner about the Jewish people, he would be termed an anti-Semite and be featured on Nightline. Consider the following quote from his book, "Those conditioned to believe that wine had become Christ’s blood were able to believe Hitler’s myth of blood as well." How could I be so blind to his prejudice?

As I studied this book, something else became apparent. In his rush to pummel Catholics, Hunt also wounded Luther. With his assault on Luther’s ‘heretical’ belief in the Real Presence, he shook my trust in sola scriptura. Why? Because Luther and Hunt both believe that Scripture alone should be used to determine doctrine. Yet, while using Scripture, both men were at opposite ends of the spectrum on what seemed to be a key doctrinal question: Is Christ physically present in the Eucharist? Hunt said this belief was "a fantasy" and "a foolish heresy" and cited many Scripture verses to support his belief. Luther disagreed . . .

Enjoy the reading!




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Tuesday, May 13, 2008

Whore No More!

Take note Candy!

WASHINGTON - John Hagee, an influential Texas televangelist who endorsed John McCain, apologized to Catholics Tuesday for his stinging criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and for having "emphasized the darkest chapters in the history of Catholic and Protestant relations with the Jews."

Hagee's support for McCain has drawn cries of outrage from some Catholic leaders who have called on McCain to reject Hagee's endorsement. The likely Republican nominee has said he does not agree with some of Hagee's past comments, but did not reject his support.

In a letter to William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Civil and Religious Rights, Hagee wrote: "Out of a desire to advance a greater unity among Catholics and evangelicals in promoting the common good, I want to express my deep regret for any comments that Catholics have found hurtful."


Thanks Tracy for the heads up!


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Saturday, April 12, 2008

Interpreting Revelation 17

I've been doing some research into how the earliest Christians interpreted Revelation 17. One complicating factor is that Revelation was one of the last books added to the Bible canon because many respected early Christians disputed its authenticity. It was the late 300's before it was added to the liturgy, so the first Christians probably did not hear it read during Mass.

The book of Revelation was called, until relatively recently, the Apocalypse, or the Apocalypse of St. John. Although the author identifies himself as John, it is Tradition which says that the author is St. John the apostle.

Here is commentary from St. Victorinus, who lived in the late 200's, and was Bishop of Pettau:

1-6. "There came one of the seven angels, which have the seven bowls, and spoke with me, saying, Come, I will show you the judgment of that great whore who sits upon many waters. And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs."The decrees of that senate are always accomplished against all, contrary to the preaching of the true faith; and now already mercy being cast aside, itself here gave the decree among all nations.

Apocalypse 17:3"-->3. "And I saw the woman herself sitting upon the scarlet-coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy."] But to sit upon the scarlet beast, the author of murders, is the image of the devil. Where also is treated of his captivity, concerning which we have fully considered. I remember, indeed, that this is called Babylon also in the Apocalypse, on account of confusion; and in Isaiah also; and Ezekiel called it Sodom. In fine, if you compare what is said against Sodom, and what Isaiah says against Babylon, and what the Apocalypse says, you will find that they are all one.

Apocalypse 16:9"-->9. "The seven heads are the seven hills, on which the woman sits."] That is, the city of Rome.

Apocalypse 17:10"-->10. "And there are seven kings: five have fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he is come, he will be for a shorttime." ] The time must be understood in which the written Apocalypse was published, since then reigned Cæsar Domitian; but before him had been Titus his brother, and Vespasian, Otho, Vitellius, and Galba. These are the five who have fallen. One remains, under whom the Apocalypse was written— Domitian, to wit. "The other has not yet come," speaks of Nerva; "and when he is come, he will be for a short time," for he did not complete the period of two years.

11. "And the beast which you saw is of the seven."] Since before those kings Nero reigned.

"And he is the eighth."] He says only when this beast shall come, reckon it the eighth place, since in that is the completion. He added:—

"And shall go into perdition."] For that ten kings received royal power when he shall move from the east, he says. He shall be sent from the city of Rome with his armies. And Daniel sets forth the ten horns and the ten diadems. And that these are eradicated from the former ones,— that is, that three of the principal leaders are killed by Antichrist: that the other seven give him Honour and wisdom and power, of whom he says:—

Apocalypse 17:16"-->16. "These shall hate the whore, to wit, the city, and shall burn her flesh with fire."] Now that one of the heads was, as it were, slain to death, and that the stroke of his death was directed, he speaks of Nero. For it is plain that when the cavalry sent by the senate was pursuing him, he himself cut his throat. Him therefore, when raised up, God will send as a worthy king, but worthy in such a way as the Jews merited.


This lecture from St. Cyril of Jerusalem ties together many of the apocalyptic books of the Bible. It isn't strictly on Revelation, but he did write in the 300's.

If you scroll way, waaay down at Catholic Encyclopedia, their article gives the same interpretation as St. Victorinus, which is that the Whore of Babylon is the Roman Empire.

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Wednesday, April 9, 2008

Whore of Babylon, Part II

Continuing with the second part of Candy's post where she actually addresses doctrinal issues . . .

Moving on... We know that whatever this false religious system is, it must be a type of counterfeit of true Christianity, else, there'd be no reason for the Bible to say the following:

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. -Revelation 18:4

This verse referred to one group of people being separated from another, but it does not specify a religion. I think it brings to mind the parable of the wheat and the tares.

Matthew 13:30: Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Therefore, a real Christian knows that they can get to heaven ONLY via Jesus, and no other way. Christians believe and know this. Does the Roman Catholic religion agree with this biblical Christian doctrine, taught by Jesus?

Candy then quotes, not from the Catechism directly, but from "Are Roman Catholics Saved," which quotes from the Catechism.

"We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ," (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 1821).

I would guess that the offense here is the mention of good works. Notice that the Catechism says that they are "accomplished with the grace of Christ." As you will read in the book of James, faith without works is dead.

"Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification," (CCC, par. 2010)

This is not a full quotation. Let us read the entire paragraph:
Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

When Candy prays for a person, what response does she expect? If Candy prays for someone, she is asking that God grant them graces, because she asked for them. This is what the paragraph is saying. Through our prayers, or fasting, we are asking for God to pour out his grace on those for whom we are praying.

If you are praying for the conversion of someone, you are asking that God grant them the graces needed to convert, i.e., through your prayer, "merit for others the graces needed for sanctification."

What is the point of prayer? Why would a non-Catholic pray for the conversion of someone if they didn't feel it would be effective in some way?

Now, neither of these quotations were actually intended to speak about Jesus being the only way of salvation.

CCC #161: Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

#169: Salvation comes from God alone

#1741: Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free." In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free." The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."

#620: Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (1 Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19).


Jesus says that we are saved through Him only, but the Roman Catholic Church says that there are works/deeds that must be done as well.

Again, notice the lack of reference to the Catechism.

CCC #1427 It is by faith in the Gospel and by Baptism that one renounces evil and gains salvation, that is, the forgiveness of all sins and the gift of new life.

#2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"- reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

However, the Catechism is a book of doctrines that we hold, not refutations, so I can't actually produce a paragraph saying that we don't believe in works salvation.


Let's see what others have to say about the Whore of Babylon

What we have here is an appeal to tradition. If each person is capable of interpreting Scripture on his own, then why do we need Bible commentaries to guide us in interpretation?

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Whore of Babylon, Part I

Edited to add: I'm having a really hard time getting Candy's words to be big enough to be readable. I'm out of naptime now, so I'll try to fix it this evening.

As mentioned previously, Red Neck Woman and Joy have already done a great job on Candy's Whore of Babylon post, not to mention Elena's post from the last time Candy brought up the issue. I'm not going to try and recreate the wheel, but I wanted to give my thoughts on the post.

I recently finished reading the Bible again. Every time through, I'm just shocked when I read Revelation chapter 17. Who/what could that chapter be discussing?

I took the time to look up Revelation 17 in the King James Bible. I admit, I didn't get out Candy's list to see if it was an uncorrupted translation. At any rate, I too was a bit "shocked." Okay, not really. But I keep hearing the same bits referenced over and over, and they are just a small part of the entire chapter.

For example, we keep hearing about these seven hills. But the very first verse says that the whore "sitteth upon many waters." The last time I checked, Rome was pretty land-locked.

The Whore of Babylon sits over a city. That city sits atop 7 hills, and is under a strong religious influence. There is only one city that fits this description, and that is Rome.

I didn't see anything in the chapter about a strong religious influence. There are actually quite a few cities which are built on seven hills. If strong religious influence is a must, then Istanbul is a likely candidate. Located in the Bosphorus Strait, it would actually be sitting on many waters.

Certainly many Christians have been killed from Muslims, but more so from the Roman Catholic Church. For example, Pope Innocent (I think he was Pope Innocent III, but I'm not positive) killed 70,000 Christians in one day, - that is more than all of the Caesars of Rome put together.

That is certainly a paragraph which could use some citations. I find it curious that she begins by saying that the Christians have been killed by Muslims, but the last line says more than Caesars.

I haven't been able to find any historical data on any of the Pope Innocent's killing 70,000 Christians in one day, or any scholarly agreement on how many Christians were killed by Rome. It seems that 90,000 Christians were killed after Jerusalem fell to the Persians in 614. But perhaps not in one day.

During the Inquisition and burnings, Christians were killed because they refused to convert to Roman Catholicism. This is not Christian or Christ like. Christ said that after you've told someone the Gospel message, if they don't accept it, you are to just shake the dust off of your feet and move on. To see an example of historical religious killings, by Roman Catholics killing Christians, watch the movie Elizabeth (the first one is the best).

Christians would know that killing someone if they don't accept your message is un-Biblical, huh?

The followers of John Hus, known as the Hussites, were quite a force in their day.
As Zwingli spread protestantism in Switzerland, protestant forces declared war on the Catholic cantons.
The factions of Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli all killed Anabaptists.
Saintly Queen Elizabeth killed Catholics for not converting to Anglicanism.
Witch trials encompassed all forms of Christianity, in Europe and America. Lutheran Germany had the highest execution rate.

All this at a time when historians are admitting that "The Inquisition was an image assembled from a body of legends and myths which, between the sixteenth and the twentieth centuries, established the perceived character of inquisitorial tribunals and influenced all ensuing efforts to recover their historical reality."

Philip Jenkins, Professor of History and Religious Studies at Pennsylvania State University (non-Catholic), writes in his book, The New Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice:

"There never was such a thing as a Church-wide inquisition, a terrifying monolith comparable to the NKVD or the Gestapo. It is more accurate to think of inquisitions that operated extensively in some areas in a highly decentralized way, although they notionally acted under papal authority. Inquisitions were important at certain times and places but never existed in other areas."

"The main problem about speaking of 'the Inquisition' is that it suggests that religious repression of this sort was a Catholic prerogative. In fact, before the Enlightenment, virtually all religious traditions on occasion acted similarly when they had the power to do so..This indictment of religious savagery and intolerance applies to.all the Protestant nations, even relatively liberal ones such as England and the Netherlands..Equally blameworthy would be Muslims, Hindus, and even Buddhists. After all, in the seventeenth century, when Catholic inquisitions were at their height, the Buddhist/Shinto nation of Japan was engaged in a ferocious attempt to stamp out the deviant faith of Christianity through torture and massacre. In just forty years, these Japanese religious persecutions killed far more victims than the Spanish Inquisition would in all the centuries of its existence."



There are ancient Mystery Babylon cults. These cults tend to have the below in common:

1. They worship a mother and child. For example: Isis and Horus.

Catholicism: Worships one God in three divine persons. I guess we don't fit this one.

2. They will mix in other pagan practices, and refine their mystery religion into a melting pot of sorts.

Does Catholicism mix in pagan practices? Perhaps, but I think Candy can defend Catholicism in her own words here:

Moving on to the decorating of the evergreen or other green deciduous trees, we do find in history pagans celebrating winter solstice, long before Christ was born. This tree decorating was also done by other heathen and pagan peoples in the past. Does this mean that a Christian having a Christmas tree is pagan? Not at all.

The pagans had feasts. Does this mean then, that Christians should not eat? The pagans sang and danced unto their false gods. Does this mean then that it was pagan of King David to dance unto the Lord when he was celebrating the returning of the ark of the covenant?


If it's good enough for Christmas, it's good enough for Catholicism.

3. Many teachings of such a cult are esoteric. You'll only be told a little here, and a little there, until you are far enough in the religion to learn more.

Catholicism: Not an esoteric religion. You can read all of our doctrine in the Catholic Catechism.

I guess we've successfully proven that Catholicism does not meet the three standards for Mystery Religion. Glad we got that settled.

Is this why the pope wears a Dagon fish hat?

Is that why Protestants wear fish magnets on their car?

The basilica of Saint Peter's, according to some, stands upon the former site of Cybele's main temple in Rome.

Well, "some" people will believe anything. But the basilica of Saint Peter's is built on the tomb of St. Peter.

I'll handle the actual doctrine part of her article in a second post.


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Monday, April 7, 2008

Whore of Babylon Blog Roundup

I guess if we're too busy, other bloggers will pick up the slack for us. Before I get started on real post, I thought I'd link to some other reactions on the web.

Postscripts From the Catholic Spitfire Grill has a very comprehensive rebuttal here:

Over and over I hear Ephesians 2:8-9 quoted to me as if the thought stopped right there. In fact, verse 9 does not complete the paragraph. Verse 10 does. And although I memorized Ephesian 2:8-9 as a Protestant and quoted it to my share of Catholics in my day my children have memorized a little bit more....because more Sacred Scripture is always better than less don't you know?. Ephesians 2:8-9 AND 10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them."

The Catholic Church teaches ALL of Ephesians. That we are saved by the work of Christ, and then He works through us. We have no merit. But we better darn well do something with the Grace that Christ gives us or we become like the Dead Sea, with living water flowing in but dead because nothing flows out.
Joy at Coffee With Candy writes:

If you research it, you will find that:
1. The Catholic church is charged in ancient times for causing the fall of Rome...How? The charge made by angry pagans said that the Church wiped out all pagan worship thereby causing Rome to collapse. (Read about it in Augustine's The City of God.)
2. Why would the Church then purposely adopt pagan practices?
3. Very little is known about Dagon, but what is known is that ancient Bishop's mitres resembled smallish caps. They did not arrive at the now familiar shape until the 1500s. Therefore, the Church did not "copy" the alleged headgear that Dagon was wearing (unless you are willing to say that the Church waited 1500 years to do so).
4. The pictures Candy posted which "compare" Dagon's headgear to a bishop's are for the most part recent artistic renderings. Certain features have been "enhanced" to help make the "point".
5. It is common for a leader to have a "big hat". There is nothing pagan or wrong with that. It is merely custom. That is really the only similarity between Dagon's headgear and that of a Bishop's.
Speaking of Dagon, Take The Long Way Home wrote about him a while back:

Here’s the main problem with researching Dagon. There’s just not much out there! Not much is known. I couldn’t find anything, nothing at all, that described the worship of Dagon. The reason for this is that his worship died out so long ago. The very latest dates I could find for anyone worshiping Dagon was in 402 AD (and this is only if you buy the idea that the Greeks were worshiping Dagon as Marnas. And did you notice who sent the worshipers of Marnas packing? It was the Christians who destroyed the last vestiges of Marnas worship. It’s hard for me to believe they destroyed the temple, then incorporated the religion into Christianity, without any historical evidence to back it up!). Most of his followers were gone by the advent of Jesus!

Sooooo. Essentially, what I learned was, nobody (at least nobody in the historical world) knows much about Dagon. Historians can’t even decide what he was the god of, much less how he was depicted. Depending on which city you lived in, you probably worshiped him differently. His religion died out in the BC years for the most part, although it’s possible there were a few hangers on as late as 402 AD. But the mitre doesn’t appear until the mid 10th century. And then there’s the problem that the mitre itself has gone through many stages, most of which don’t look anything like the representation that the anti Catholics claim to be identical to the fish head of Dagon’s priests. And then there is the fact that an entire sect of Catholicism (the Eastern Rite Catholics) don’t wear the Western style mitre to this day. So to believe what the anti Catholics have to say you have to believe that Western Christians resurrected a long dead religion (one that they themselves helped to stamp out the last vestiges of) sometime in the 15th century (that’s when the mitre most closely resembles the one today). This would be after the Protestant Reformation, by the way. Who would believe this???

A Soldier's Wife credits Candy with starting her on her way to conversion . . . TO Catholicism!

I've read this blog off and on for some time and I owe the author a loving thanks :)

Because of some of her posts like this very one, it helped encourage (along with other things that I've talked about previously) me to follow what the Lord was saying to me and now I very happily have my toe in the Tiber and am so at peace with my decision to fully trust the Lord with this and all chapters of my life, and not insist that I need to run the show :)


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