Monday, June 30, 2008

Closed Canon

The interesting conversation in Candy's comments continued last night after I went to bed.

I would really be interested in hearing more on why you believe God gives 'special messages'to people now. The Bible warns not to 'add' to His Word nor take away from (Proverbs 30:6, Revelation 22:18-19). --K

Candy replies: K, 1 Cor. 13:8 doesn't say the canon is closed, and that there is no more prophesying.


Now, this is an interesting development. If the Bible canon isn't closed, then why is the Catholic Church wrong for having "added" the apocryphal books to the Bible?

Other Cambridge Bibles have the apocrypha in it - apocrypha means "false."


Usually, when a person refers to "the canon" being closed, they mean that no new books can be added to the Bible. However, it is possible that in this case she is referring to "new revelation" in the sense of prophesy, which would make more sense in the context of the conversation.

On the other hand, the Scriptures quoted are the ones usually used to condemn the versions of the Bible which include the deuterocanonical books (the apocrypha).

I'm finding this an interesting conversation, and I hope Candy adds to the comments later. I've found that she sometimes lets the comments drop if she doesn't have any additional Scripture to add to her position. For example, about two months ago, the topic of infant baptism came up in the comments and she promised an article on the age of accountability, as she did two days ago, and she has yet to have gotten around to it.

If you're new to the conversation, and you're wondering about these "extra" books and the Catholic Bible, you can read an article I wrote on the subject here.

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Sunday, June 29, 2008

This High Stakes Game

From Candy's comments:

I am very curious about the prophesying you keep talking about. I was always taught that once the Old Testament ended that anything like this was of the devil. Can you share some scripture that this is from in the NT? --N.
----

Wow, N... There's more info on this in the NT, than in the OT.

A good place for you to start a study on this is to read 1 Corinthians, chapters 12-14.

Be careful. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is one's attributing the works and power of the Holy Spirit to the devil. --Candy


This is a reminder of why we do what we do here at Visits to Candyland. Candy says that the Catholic Church is satanic. We say it is the Church established by Jesus.

Be careful.


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Kepha barJonah

Postscripts from the Catholic Spitfire Grill has reposted her article on Matthew 16:13-21 in honor of today's Feast of Sts. Peter and Paul. This passage was included in our Scripture reading for the day. Redneck Woman's article is really excellent, so if you've ever wondered about how we get Peter being Pope from Scripture, head on over and give it a read!

You don't just go to Caesarea Philippi from Galilee. It is a two-day journey deep in to Gentile territory. Jesus and his disciples would be considered ritually unclean because of their journey there and thus, it was not a journey to be taken lightly. In chapter 16 we see Jesus talking to the Pharisees and Saducees so He was obviously not in gentile territory right before this took place and nothing but this encounter with Peter is recorded as having taken place in Caesarea Philippi; therefore, Sacred Scripture seems to imply that Jesus went to this place expressly for the purpose of having this talk with his disciples at the foot of a huge rock.

At the top of this rock was a temple built by Herod in honor of Caesar. The rock itself was the site of the pagan worship of Pan who was the pagan god of sheep and shepherds. At the base of the rock is a huge cavern that at the time was considered bottomless. Human sacrifices were thrown into the cavern and the pagans called this place the “gates of death.” The rock is also the headwaters of the Jordan River.


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Saturday, June 28, 2008

My Domestic Church: YEAR OF ST. PAUL




From time to time, the church will have a special year to help the faithful focus on a particular aspect of the faith. This year, starting June 28, 2008 and going until June 28, 2009, will be the Year of St. Paul!

I have a number of resources on my other blog for following the church year.


My Domestic Church: YEAR OF ST. PAUL

St. Paul is one of Candy's favorite saints, and she particularly enjoys the book of Romans.





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Friday, June 27, 2008

How not to witness to Catholic Christians Part 2

Since publishing my original list of How NOT to Witness to Catholic Christians I have encountered a few more and thought I would share them!

1. Don't waste my time. If you are truly interested in the Catholic perspective that's fine. I am glad to share it with you. But if you already "know what I know" and you are determined that none of my arguments will be persuasive, "no matter what" then you really are not likely to hear or read any of the words I am putting time and effort behind. It is very maddening and it makes me less likely to jump into such a discussion the next time.

2. Don't invoke the devil into it! In an honest discussion between Christians there is no place for stating that the other side has Satan in the cheering section, "twisting words" and "tearing down."

3. Use primary sources. Wikepedia, and Wiki answers, although fun and informative aren't! Also quoting from web pages with unknown authors puts does not help your credibility.

4. We aren't likely to be impressed with testimonies from lay ex-Catholics either. We know how we were catechized and it's no surprise to us when someone leaves because he never learned the Catholic Faith in the first place.

5. Don't be afraid to apologize when you are wrong. Apologies do a lot to build bonds, lighten the mood and move along the discussion.

6. At the same time do not be afraid to give your opponent props! Saying things like "I never thought of it that way'', or "Touche!" or "I see your point" build your own credibility and respect and they help us to hear YOUR points as well .



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Candy on Infant Baptism

On Candy's most recent post, someone left a comment asking her opinion of infant baptism. (A secret reader here?)

Candy's reply:
There is no place in the Bible, at all, that says we are to baptize babies.

Under the New Testament, baptism is to occur only after a person has accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

A baby is under the age of accountability, and therefore can't choose Christ, meaning that their baptism is just a bath, and nothing more.

I dedicated my firstborn to the Lord, but I never baptized any of my children, as it's meaningless, and not biblical.

All babies who die go to heaven, regardless if they've been baptized or not.

Anyone under the age of accountability, or without the mental capacities to understand the Gospel is saved by default, because they can't have their sins imputed to them, because they don't know it's sin, and the Bible says that if one sins, and didn't know it was sin, then it is not imputed as sin to them.


Now, I can hardly blame Candy for not providing Scripture citations for NOT baptizing babies, because she says it isn't there. I would be curious to hear what her interpretation is of the verses which I provided in my previous article.

However, she provides a whole comprehensive theological view without any reference to Scripture. Yes, she's busy and maybe she didn't have time. I understand that, and as she is pretty independent theologically, I can't just look up an article online explaining her view. That, at least, is one point in favor of Catholicism. If we're busy here, you can find an answer pretty easy.

But returning to my point, I can guarantee you that "age of accountability" isn't found in the Bible anymore than "purgatory." I'm also pretty sure that it doesn't discuss mental capacity. Catholicism is criticized for not relying strictly on Scripture, and for using tradition, but in practice, even people who consider themselves strict "Bible Believers" will use tradition in interpreting the Bible, as Candy does here.

Joy has a good list of common non-Catholic traditions here.

I am also curious as to how this: the Bible says that if one sins, and didn't know it was sin, then it is not imputed as sin to them.

lines up with this:
Many people will fall into religions that worship the counterfeit Mary and Jesus. They will fall into these cults because of their ignorance of the Word of God, or because they are reading the new Bible versions that have been translated from extremely errant manuscripts translated by ignorant or ungodly people.

Candy also wrote at one point that "sincerity will not save you."

If Catholics are unaware that they are worshiping Baal and Semaris, or Dagon the Fish God, if they think they are really Christians, then they don't know they are sinning, so does that mean that their salvation isn't really in danger?

I think this is typical of the sort of double-standard that Candy has for Catholics. When in doubt, they're probably going to hell.

For example, Julie wrote about her husband:

Hi Candy! I have a situation that I am a bit confused on. I am not 100% sure on my DH's salvation but he does attend church with us

Candy replied: Julie, he said he's saved, so that's that. The rest is between he and God. Different Christians are in different walks in their life.

Yet, when Angie, a professed Catholic, claimed to trust in Jesus for her salvation, Candy's response was very different:

Angie, it's nice that you believe in Jesus Christ - whatever that means. I believe in Abraham Lincoln, but that's not getting me into heaven. Also, I already told you that I'm not condemning you, GOD has ALREADY done that, and I gave you scripture which proved it.


I'll keep an eye on the comments to see if any additional information is added, but for now, I'm filing this away as an instance where Candy is relying on tradition to form her interpretation of Scripture.

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Happy Belated Birthday


Birthday Cake
Originally uploaded by PinkCakeBox
Oh, I hope I had this on my calendar right. Kelly, was yesterday your birthday?!!

Thursday, June 26, 2008

Catholic Keepers at Home

A few ladies commented a while ago that they were drawn to keepingthehome.com because of the homemaking tips because they were unsure where to find other housekeeping/homeschooling Catholic blogs.

I do find items regularly and put them on my Google Reader from other blogs and I have added that widget to the side bar. I hope that you will find them interesting and helpful!


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Get the word out

If you enjoyed Kelly's superb article on Baptism, help us get the word out with the social bookmarks at the end of the article.

I have submitted it to Twitter, Myspace, Facebook, Stumble, Del.icio.us, Technorati, Diigo and Digg!

You can digg it here:
What the Catholic Church REALLY teaches!

read more | digg story

Please if you are signed up with any of those sites, be sure to bookmark this article. Help others find this site. Thanks!




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Wednesday, June 25, 2008

Comment to Kim

Kim writes:
I just read through that anti-Candy blog by Elena and the others... it was truly sickening. I could not even leave a comment to their filth. I can't believe how they toss around scriptures about peace and love on a blog that is literally bashing a person and what they believe truth is.


Well Kim, that is sort of how I feel when I read the posts Candy writes about Catholicism - truly sickened. I too cannot leave a comment on her filth... no really, I literally cannot leave a comment because Candy will not allow it! But this last sentence really took the cake, because the whole point of the Tom Petty (an unlikely voice of the Envangelical Christian cause don't you think?)was to bash me for what I believe the truth is! So you can't have it both ways Kim.


I am truly sorry Candy, I guess the only light is that you are being persecuted for His name sake!
Y



This is the other baffling part. Candy acts like she is playing defense. She is not. She is playing offense. She is the persecutor not the persecuted. This latest volley was her serve.

I just think you need to keep your chronology straight.

One woman named Angie said "when you have a woman who fills her mind with anti-catholic bigotry..."blah blah and on and on about you Candy...so this Angie's response to that is "you turn the other cheek on something like that and there is no telling the damage that will be done" Well if that really is how those ladies feel then they don't know Jesus at all.


This would be the same Jesus who turned over the tables in the temple right? Perhaps you are familiar with this quote from Dorothy Sayer:

"I believe it to be a great mistake to present Christianity as something charming and popular with no offense in it....We cannot blink at the fact that gentle Jesus meek and mild was so stiff in his opinions and so inflammatory in his language that he was thrown out of church, stoned, hunted from place to place, and finally gibbeted as a firebrand and a public danger. Whatever his peace was, it was not the peace of an amiable indifference."
. I am praying that even if they can't let go of their "catholic vendetta"
I will happily let this "catholic vendetta" go. In fact I closed this blog down last summer when Candy ceased persecuting the Catholic church. If she lets it go, I most certainly will be glad to.


then they can truly begin to understand Jesus and having a true a personal relationship with Him, one that changes you so greatly that you are no longer that person that does ugly things.
Um... that presupposes that Catholics (in general) and me (in particular) do not already have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or have not been changed by him. I can tell you that 20 years ago there is no way I would have cared much about what someone like Candy said about my Catholic faith. But I had a re-conversion experience that put my faith on fire and a very personal experience that proved to me that indeed Jesus loves me.


They say on their blog that they are not bashing or name calling just making a justified response to something "anti-catholic". But WE do not have to defend what is God given,


I can think of a few first century Christian martyrs that might disagree with that!


"vengeance is mine says the Lord, I shall repay" that being said I don't peruse the internet for "anti-christian" people/media/blogs/propoganda and then make blogs in response to them.


Just for the sake of historical accuracy, I wasn't perusing the net for an anti-Catholic blog when I found Candy's. I thought I had found a homeschooling blog as it was linked to a homeschool site. I didn't search her out, I was lured there.


I will not be visiting their blog again.
We'll see

All I can do is pray for them that Jesus' love and kindness will overwhelm them and they will come to repentance.




I come to repentance all the time Kim. But I have no reason to repent of the good work that comes from this blog. Just getting Kelly on as co-blogger and her fine articles was definitely worth any petty persecutions that come from the general direction.


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John 4: Sanctifying grace and infant baptism

Most of the fourth chapter of St. John's gospel deals with the Samaritan woman.

In verse 10, Jesus begins speaking to the Samaritan woman about the living water. Candy interprets the water of life to be the Holy Spirit:

The living water is the Holy Spirit, which enters into each person, when they become a true believer, and this gives them eternal life after their resurrection

The notes in my Navarre Bible, which represent the Catholic view, indicate that the living water is sanctifying grace:

"Everyone knows from experience that water is absolutely necessary for human life; similarly, the grace of Christ is absolutely necessary for supernatural life. The water which can truly quench man's thirst does not come from this or any other well: it is Christ's grace, the "living water" which provides eternal life. . ."
The Catholic Catechism defines sanctifying grace in paragraph #2023:
Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

This goes to show, once again, that Catholics do not believe we are saved by works, but by God's grace, His sanctifying grace.


For verses 13-14, Candy writes:
Once the living water is received, there is nothing more the person must do. There are no works to add to salvation. There are no rites or initiations, or ceremonies to perform. Once one receives this living water, their salvation is complete. They are saved, not "being saved," as some religions falsely teach.

There are several points to be made in this paragraph. First, is the point that I have made several times before. Candy feels that Catholicism teaches you must "earn" your salvation through "works." But she says that in order to be saved a person must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Acceptance is an action. Catholics believe we are saved through God's sanctifying grace, not through our actions.

Secondly, Candy says that after you are saved, there are no more works which you must do. Yet, Candy lists in this article quite a long list of actions that a person will perform once they have been saved. She often says that you will know you are saved because you will have a radical change of life, and begin studying the Bible. If you have not performed these works, then you are probably not saved.

Finally, she feels that "are being saved" is a false teaching. The King James Version translates 2 Cor 2:15 and 1 Cor 1:18 as "are saved" while other translations, including Young's Literal Translation uses "are being saved."

It seems we must discount those verses from the KJV point of view, but I can still point you to another verse which point to salvation as a process.

Phil 2:12: "
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

You can find lots more on the Scripture Catholic website.


On verses 25-26, Candy writes:
There is a heretical teaching going around, by even recognized evangelists, purporting that Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. That is a false wind of doctrine. Right here in these verses, Jesus plainly affirms that he is indeed the Messiah. Messias is the Greek form of Messiah.

Fortunately, that heretical belief is not compatible with Catholicism. The Catechism states (look carefully, and you'll see Scripture citations!):

453
The title "Christ" means "Anointed One" (Messiah). Jesus is the Christ, for "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power" (Acts 10:38). He was the one "who is to come" (Lk 7:19), the object of "the hope of Israel" (Acts 28:20).



For verse 34, Candy writes:
God has a job for all Christians to fulfill, and part of that job is doing the Great Commission. The Bible tells us that the Christian's meat is the Bible - the Word of God. See 1 Corinthians 3:2; Hebrews 5:12-15 How do we know the will of the Lord? By partaking of the meat of His Word (reading the Bible daily), by prayer, and by the leading of the Holy Spirit, which indwells every saved Christian.

This is remarkably similar to the notes in my Bible:
Every genuine conversion is necessarily projected towards others, in a desire to have them share in thh joy of encountering Jesus.

"The Apostles, when they were called, left their nets; this woman leaves her water jar and proclaims teh Gospel, calling not just one person but influencing the whole city" (St. John Chrysostom, Hom. on St. John, 33).

Candy does not comment on verse 53, which concerns the curing of a royal official's son:
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

This is one of the verses which points us to infant baptism. We have already discussed in John 3, that the Catholic Church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation. This chapter is a nice chance to give some Scriptural support for infant baptism.

Acts 16:15:
And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Acts 18:8: And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Acts 16:33: And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Children are members of a household, therefore they would have been baptized, too. Some contend that this was a later innovation by the Catholic Church, but there are plenty of records showing that infant baptism was the practice of the early church.

"And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family." Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).

"[T]herefore children are also baptized." Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).

"For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too." Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).

"Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous." Origen, Homily on Leviticus, 8:3 (post A.D. 244).


Additional resources on infant baptism:
Scripture Catholic
Catholic Answers
Can infants be "born again"?

Infant baptism is not unique to the Catholic Church.
Why We Baptize Babies (Lutheran site)
Presbyterian 101: Infant Baptism



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Stay Tuned . . .

I see that my recent post reminded Candy that she hasn't posted on her John series in a while, and she now has John Chapter 4 up.

This is actually one of my favorite series that Candy has done. I feel that it is the closest we can come to a real dialogue. She sits down with her Bible, and I sit down with mine, and we both share what we have found in Scripture.

Unfortunately, these posts do take time to write, so you will have to wait until this evening for our installment. Until then, please peruse the previous chapters.

Let's Study The Bible!
John 2
John 3
John 6


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Tuesday, June 24, 2008

Where do they come up with this stuff?

I'm not going to comment too much on this Catholic Church timeline, because we've already touched on several of the topics, and Erika is doing a good job already. But I couldn't resist poking one or two holes in some of the claims.

The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I, 600 years after Christ.

The Word of God forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (600)

I'm not sure the thought occurred to the authors, but Latin was actually the common language at this time, so quite the opposite of unknown.

The Papacy is of pagan origin. The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas. (610)

I'd like to submit some evidence that these distinctively Catholic beliefs were held long before the dates they use.

"The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).

"And he says to him again after the resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided." Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).

"After such things as these, moreover, they still dare--a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics--to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access." Cyprian, To Cornelius, Epistle 54/59:14 (A.D. 252).

”The reason for your absence was both honorable and imperative, that the schismatic wolves might not rob and plunder by stealth nor the heretical dogs bark madly in the rapid fury nor the very serpent, the devil, discharge his blasphemous venom. So it seems to us right and altogether fitting that priests of the Lord from each and every province should report to their head, that is, to the See of Peter, the Apostle." Council of Sardica, To Pope Julius (A.D. 342).

Note: Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks "that there is no real 1st century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."

That would be an awfully strange thing to remark, seeing as how Clement lived in the 1st century.

Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized.

As milehimama pointed out, this comes from Scripture, though I'm not sure of the date for the book of Kings:

2 Kings 2:19-21
19 The men of the city said to Elisha, "Look, our lord, this town is well situated, as you can see, but the water is bad and the land is unproductive."

20 "Bring me a new bowl," he said, "and put salt in it." So they brought it to him.

21 Then he went out to the spring and threw the salt into it, saying, "This is what the LORD says: 'I have healed this water. Never again will it cause death or make the land unproductive.' " 22 And the water has remained wholesome to this day, according to the word Elisha had spoken.


The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century.

"It is good and beneficial to communicate every day, and to partake of the holy body and blood of Christ. For He distinctly says, 'He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life.' And who doubts that to share frequently in life, is the same thing as to have manifold life. I, indeed, communicate four times a week, on the Lord's day, on Wednesday, on Friday, and on the Sabbath, and on the other days if there is a commemoration of any Saint.” Basil, To Patrician Caesaria, Epistle 93 (A.D. 372).

"Dearly-beloved, utter this confession with all your heart and reject the wicked lies of heretics, that your fasting and almsgiving may not be polluted by any contagion with error: for then is our offering of the sacrifice clean and oar gifts of mercy holy, when those who perform them understand that which they do. For when the Lord says, "unless ye have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man, and drunk His blood, ye will not have life in you,' you ought so to be partakers at the Holy Table, as to have no doubt whatever concerning the reality of Christ's Body and Blood. For that is taken in the mouth which is believed in Faith, and it is vain for them to respond Amend who dispute that which is taken." Pope Leo the Great, Sermon, 91:3 (ante A.D. 461).

The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III, in th year 1215.

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (A.D. 110-165).

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

"For the blood of the grape--that is, the Word--desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord's immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both--of the water and of the Word--is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul." Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2 (ante A.D. 202).


"He once in Cana of Galilee, turned the water into wine, akin to blood, and is it incredible that He should have turned wine into blood?" Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:4 (c. A.D. 350).

"Having learn these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man's heart, to make his face to shine with oil, 'strengthen thou thine heart,' by partaking thereof as spiritual, and "make the face of thy soul to shine."" Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:8 (c. A.D. 350).

"Then having sanctified ourselves by these spiritual Hymns, we beseech the merciful God to send forth His Holy Spirit upon the gifts lying before Him; that He may make the Bread the Body of Christ, and the Wine the Blood of Christ; for whatsoever the Holy Ghost has touched, is surely sanctified and changed." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXIII:7 (c. A.D. 350).

Confession of sin to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III, in the Lateran Council. (1215)

“In church confess your sins, and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life...On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 4:14,14:1 (c. A.D. 90).

"Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins..." Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215).

"In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance...when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord." Origen, Homilies on Leviticus, 2:4 (A.D. 248).

"For although in smaller sins sinners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of communion: now with their time still unfulfilled, while persecution is still raging, while the peace of the Church itself is not vet restored, they are admitted to communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands Of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the eucharist is given to them; although it is written, 'Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.'" Cyprian, To the Clergy, 9 (16):2 (A.D. 250).

Actually, these all seem to come from Loraine Boettner’s book, Roman Catholicism. You can read an article debunking several of these points on the Catholic Answers site:

Item: "Bible forbidden to laymen, placed on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Valencia . . . [A.D.] 1229."

This looks rather damaging, but Boettner has his history completely wrong. The first thing to note is that the Index of Forbidden Books was established in 1559, so a council held in 1229 could hardly have listed a book on it.

The second point is that there apparently has never been any Church council in Valencia, Spain. If there had been one, it could not have taken place in 1229 because Muslim Moors then controlled the city. It is inconceivable that Muslims, who were at war with Spanish Christians, and had been off and on for five centuries, would allow Catholic bishops to hold a council in one of their cities. The Christian armies did not liberate Valencia from Moorish rule until nine years later, 1238. So Valencia is out.

Okay, I'm out of time, so that's all folks!


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Veneration of Angels and Dead Saints

OK we are on to the next so called heresies on the "Bible Study Chart List"


"Veneration of Angels and Dead Saints"

here are some articles for you to read:

The Veneration of Angels, Saints, and Images
The Communion of Saints
Angel Pages
Our Blessed Mother & The Saints
The Communion of Saints: Biblical Overview
Latria (Worship), Dulia (Honor), and Veneration of the Saints ( this one is a heated dicussion between a Catholic and Protestant but it is very interesting to read)
The Communion of Saints: Dead or Alive in Christ?
Answering Objections to the Intercession of the Saints




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Oh, by the way...

Earlier in her post entitled: www.keepingthehome.com: WOW! What a weekend..., Candy wrote:

We had praise parties going on in my Meez Room on Saturday and Sunday nights. We danced to music by such artists as Rich Mullins

So I thought it was only right to point out that at the time of his death, Rich Mullins was in the final preparations of becoming - CATHOLIC!







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Back Atcha Babe!

Since Candy was kind enough to dedicate a song to us

www.keepingthehome.com: Yay!

perhaps we should send one back her way!





and this isn't a song but this is the kind of reasoning that keeps me Catholic.



But really, I think Candy has bigger problems than us!




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More Bible Catholics

Candy addresses "anti-Candy" websites in her post again today, but my interest was caught more by the comments.

Dawn writes: I perused their site awhile back just to get a feel for what was going on, so I wouldn't feel so out of the loop with what was going on.. and one of the commenters had said "this is making me read my chatecism more"..and I felt SO SAD!!! She or He was missing the WHOLE POINT!! That commentor should be READING HER BIBLE!!!!

Suzanne, who sometimes comments here at our site, wrote: It's really too bad there has to be anti-Candy sites. I really feel bad for those, and I am being general, that just can't use Scripture and the pure Word of God.

First, Dawn is probably unfamiliar with the Catechism, but it is chock full of cross references to Scripture. For example, in the first first section, #30 states: "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, "an upright heart", as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.

The quotation is from Psalm 105, verse 3.

It is very possible that there is a commenter who was inspired by our blog to read her Catechism more. That doesn't preclude Bible reading. There have also been a few commenters who wrote that they found their way to the Catholic Church through reading the Bible.

Very often, people demand from us "Where is that in Scripture?" and I am happy to oblige. Our posts are full of Scripture references, and I think that should be difficult to miss about our site. Here is a sampling of posts which rely on Biblical arguments for Catholic practices:

I Confess . . . That It's Biblical
Is Priestly Celibacy Biblical?
Candy versus St. Paul (on crucifixes)
Papal Ponderings
Interpreting Scripture

When Candy delved into the Gospel of John, we did too.
Let's Study The Bible!
John 2
John 3
John 6

I also shared a look into the strong history of Bible study within my own family. I can assure you, there's no dust on my Bible, and I haven't found anything contrary to Catholicism yet!

Even if you feel that Catholics look to the Pope more than we look to Scripture, rest assured that the Pope points us back to Scripture:

What can we learn from St. Jerome? Above all I think it is this: to love the word of God in sacred Scripture. St. Jerome said, "To ignore Scripture is to ignore Christ." That is why it is important that every Christian live in contact and in personal dialogue with the word of God, given to us in sacred Scripture.

This dialogue should be of two dimensions. On one hand, it should be truly personal, because God speaks to each of us through sacred Scripture and has a message for each of us. We shouldn't read sacred Scripture as a word from the past, but rather as the word of God addressed even to us, and we must try to understand what the Lord is telling us.

And if you think we've missed anything, you can head over to the Scripture Catholic website, which "provides over 2,000 Scripture citations from the Old and New Testament that explain and defend the teachings of the Catholic Church."

As for this:

I dedicate the below song to Elena and the other anti-Candy-ites:

The Lord has called me to do a very special job, to spread the Gospel of Christ, and I WON'T BACK DOWN... :-D

I would like to point out that we have no problem with Candy spreading the Gospel of Christ. I think, however, that she should be content to trust in the Gospel alone to bring people out of the Catholic Church, rather than posting false information about our beliefs.

If reading this post is all someone needs to do to get saved and receive the Holy Spirit, then she should trust that the Holy Spirit will reveal to that person that they should leave the Catholic Church. I think that sharing the Gospel builds up the Kingdom, but attacking particular branches of Christianity, even if you call it "revealing the TRUTH," tears it down.

So, keep preaching the Gospel, Candy, but trust in the Holy Spirit more. He won't let you down.


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Pagan Candles

An example of "pagan" Jews using wax candles in worship. Perhaps they would be surprised that the Catholic Church gets credit for this "innovation."

Shabbot Pictures, Images and Photos

I think this also begs the question as to what should be used an alternative for church lighting. If electric lights are the Christian thing to use, then I think you'd be showing a pretty recent founding for your church.

Besides, these pagans are using electric lights AND candles in their worship:

Hindu procession


Actually, I visited a Hindu temple once on a field trip, and all of the statues were decorated with electric lights, similar to this:

Hindu Festival

I'm not really sure what lighting alternative we would have left if we ruled out everything that pagans use. After all, they can sit around in the sunlight and moonlight, too.

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Monday, June 23, 2008

Bible Charts

Bible Charts
There is a post up right now on Candy's Blog that has a link to a "Bible Study Chart" which claims to be a timeline of Catholic Heresies. I would like to go through each one but the list is very long so I might just get to a couple.

The first are prayers for the dead. Here are some links to get us started.
Is Purgatory Biblical?
Prayers for the Dead
The Early Church’s Belief in Purgatory

Next is the Sign of the Cross:
History of a Christian Prayer.
The Sign of the Cross
Sign of the Cross
The Sign of the Cross

The last one I will address is "wax candles introduced in Church". I really do not know why this would be a heresy and would love some insight into this. AHHHHH! after 2 seconds of typing and my trusty Google I have found this:
The Two Babylons Lamps and Wax-Candles Alexander Hislop

You all know how I feel about Alexander Hislop.
Refuting Alexander Hislop & The Two Babylons

Here is a Catholic point of view:
The Wax Candle in the Liturgy
Candles

Well I am off to make breakfast and take care of my family! Have a blessed day!!! Pax Christi, Erika

On A Personal Note . . .


We seem to be having a little lull, and I thought it might be a good time to share some personal information, especially as Elena has been prodding me to do so. My husband and I are expecting a new baby in early January!

This will be my fourth child, and I have had some previous complications in my pregnancies. If you wouldn't mind, please keep me in your prayers for a healthy pregnancy, and a safe vaginal birth.

The above picture is a sample Kelly baby. They all look pretty much alike, but my husband hasn't given up hope for a redhead!

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Friday, June 20, 2008

If you get a chance folks, please keep my 15-year-old son Sam in your prayers this weekend as he attends the Franciscan University Youth Conference. He will be attending with 2000 Catholic youths, attending mass, going to workshops, going to adoration, staying up too late and goofing off! Sounds great! Here's a little bit of what he will be experiencing this weekend. Witness_Promo.wmv (video/x-ms-wmv Object)

(Tell me again how Catholics aren't Christians?)




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Common Questions from Protestants

You know how we always say not to pile all of your objections to the Catholic Church in one long comment? Well, Dave Armstrong has answered one of those sorts of comments on his blog. His reply is extremely long, and it is full to other articles he was written with material backing up his response. I'll excerpt a few bits here, but it's worth wandering over with a drink and a good amount of time for reading.

The protestant words are in green, and Dave's words are in black.

Peter was a leader, yes, but I don't see him being a "pope" in Scripture, let alone infallible.
Papal infallibility is exercised in conjunction with the Church as a whole: bishops and councils. Scripture expressly states that a council of the early Church was infallible:
Acts 15:29-30: "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity."
It is not implausible, then, to hold to papal infallibility, in light of the virtual infallibility of both prophets and apostles, that is manifest in Scripture. The great authority of the papacy is seen in how Scripture presents Peter:

50 New Testament Proofs for Petrine Primacy and the Papacy

The Biblical, Primitive Papacy: St. Peter the "Rock": Scholarly Opinion (Mostly Protestant)

The Biblical, Primitive Papacy: St. Peter & the "Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven": Scholarly Opinion (Mostly Protestant) (+ Part II)

The Bible teaches us that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Sinfulness has no direct relation to infallibility. If it did, then we couldn't have inspired Scripture, since sinners wrote all of it (Moses, David, Paul, Peter). If a sinner can write Scripture that is divinely inspired, then he can be protected from error (infallibility) because the latter (a negative protection) is a lot less of a miracle than the former, which is a positive attribute.
. . .
When the early believer "broke bread," it was a simple memorial and wasn't regarded as His literal body and blood.

All the evidence of early Church belief that we have mitigates against this. Don't take my word for it. You can consult any reputable Protestant historian of that period: History of the Doctrine of the Eucharist: Nine Protestant Scholarly Sources.

This is a fact. I'm not trying to argue it. It is simply factual information.

With all due respect, I don't think you can demonstrate historically that it was a fact. I think what we find is the exact opposite. Since I cited all Protestant scholars in the above survey, it can't be said that they had a Catholic bias and were merely looking to confirm what they already believed (i.e., special pleading).

We have no reason whatsoever (no factual information) to think that the apostles ever turned bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.

Again, I must disagree. That's not, I submit, what the Apostle Paul thought, as we saw in 1 Corinthians 10:16 above. In 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 Paul states that partaking of Communion "in an unworthy manner" causes one to be guilty of "profaning the body and blood of the Lord." That is Real Presence. He's not just saying one is "abusing the memory of the Lord" or some such, as we would say if someone spit on a grave or something. No; it is profaning His actual body and blood, because that is what Paul believes was present in the Eucharist.

Martin Luther thought both of these texts were absolutely clear and compelling. He wrote about 1 Corinthians 10:16:
Even if we had no other passage than this we could sufficiently strengthen all consciences and sufficiently overcome all adversaries . . . He could not have spoken more clearly and strongly . . . The bread which is broken or distributed piece by piece is the participation in the body of Christ. It is, it is, it is, he says, the participation in the body of Christ. Wherein does the participation in the body of Christ consist? It cannot be anything else than that as each takes a part of the broken bread he takes therewith the body of Christ . . .

(Against the Heavenly Prophets in the Matter of Images and Sacraments, 1525; Luther's Works, Vol. 40: 177, 181, 178)
And about 1 Corinthians 11:27-30:
It is not sound reasoning arbitrarily to associate the sin which St. Paul attributes to eating with remembrance of Christ, of which Paul does not speak. For he does not say, “Who unworthily holds the Lord in remembrance,” but “Who unworthily eats and drinks.”

(Ibid., 183-184)

If Jesus wanted to teach what Catholics teach on this question, He would have made it very6 clear so there would be no confusion. And the Last Supper was not regarded as an ongoing ritual.

He was absolutely clear at the Last Supper ("This is My Body"). And He was so clear in the discourse in John 6 that it is the only known record of disciples ceasing to follow Jesus, because they couldn't handle the teaching of Real Presence:
John 6:52-66: The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper'na-um. Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.
. . .

In other words, the transubstantiation wasn't even a twinkle in anybody's eye back then. That whole transubstantiation idea came wayyyy later, my friend. Truly it did.


So what? It's a development of an earlier doctrine that had always been held, just like the Trinity.
ME: The Apostle Paul refers to the "table of the Lord" an "altars" in the context of Christian worship. That only meant one thing: sacrifice, and since there were no more sacrifices of lambs and goats, it referred to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and the Eucharist:



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Thursday, June 19, 2008

Catholic Cult Revisited

In our comments, a commenter named Fruit of the Spirit stated that Catholicism is a cult. I referred her to my previous post, where I discuss the criteria for using the term "cult" and concluded that the Catholic Church does not meet that criteria. I asked why she felt we did merit the term. While she did not respond in comments, she did respond on her blog. Fruit of the Spirit has not let me comment on her blog previously, so I decided to respond here.

Here are her criteria:
1: formal religious veneration : worship

2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator cults>

5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion.


The problem is that these criteria are so vague that all but numbers 3 and 4 could relate to almost any religion.

For example, Baptists gather for formal worship on Sundays(#1), they have a system of religious beliefs and ritual (i.e., baptism and the Lord's Supper) (#2). They have a great devotion to the person of Jesus, and to a book (the Bible)(#5). Some also practice the laying on of hands, as a system for the cure of disease(#4).

Apart from a few small groups of Christians, Catholicism is not considered unorthodox because it does not depart from historic Christianity. We do not believe that Jesus was just a wise prophet, but not God, for example. Nor do we deny the Virgin Birth, or the physical Resurrection of Jesus. These basics of Christianity are what are generally referred to as "orthodox" Christianity. In addition, many of our "unorthodox" beliefs are shared by other branches of Christianity, such as the Orthodox churches, the Anglican church, and some branches of the Lutheran church.

Fruit of the Spirit lists several doctrines or practices that she seems to feel are contrary to Scripture, but which we share with other churches.

bow down to idols in the form of statues - The Orthodox churches contain Icons, and some Anglican and Lutheran churches also contain statues.

infant baptism - This is extremely wide-spread in Christianity.

petition & pray to saints - See the Orthodox churches.

petition & pray to angels - See the Orthodox churches.

say repetitious prayers - I would say this is also extremely wide-spread in Christianity. Besides the "big three" of Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran, many churches say the Lord's Prayer every Sunday. I have attended a Methodist church where they said the Doxology and the Nicene Creed every Sunday.

practice of rituals - Again, I think everyone is implicated here. Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Marriage are all rituals.

believe the catholic holy bible is the true word of God - The Catholic Bible is used by more than the Catholic Church. Even the Amish include those "extra" books. And if you think we have a lot, the Ethiopian Church uses an Old Testament which contains 52 books!

the act of confession - The Orthodox churches also practice confession, and some Anglicans and Lutherans use a form of aural confession, which is what is usually meant by this.

My point here, is that I'm not sure why we are a cult, and the Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans are not. Many of our "unorthodox" beliefs are shared by the majority of Christians.


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Who Kelly Is

We often say on this blog that we have a lot in common with Candy, and we really only disagree with her on a small amount of what she writes. However, as we tend to only write about the disagreements, I thought the things we have in common might get a bit lost. I was inspired by Candy's Who I Am post to write about some things which I share with Candy.

1. I am a Christian. I put my faith in Jesus Christ, the ONE Mediator, and I love the Church that He founded.

2. I love reading and studying the Bible.

3. I, like Candy, am not fond of the NIV translation. I prefer the RSV, but I love my Navarre Study Bibles, as well. And you can't beat the KJV for poetic translation.

4. I homeschool my children.

5. I don't send my children to Sunday School. Actually, most Catholic Churches do not have Sunday School or church nurseries.

6. I love to read. I can plow through the reading list, just like Candy does.

7. My 7-year-old does laundry, too.

8. I like to cook from scratch for most things.

9. I wear only dresses in the summer, and I like to dress femininely.

10. I admit it. I make kombucha tea. But I prefer Stephanie's recipe.




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Wednesday, June 18, 2008

Who Candy Is.

Candy's latest article tries to give us more of a feel for her real personality. She explains:

Unless you know me in person, then you probably have certain pictures in your head of who you think I am, and you are probably wrong about some things. I think this is why some of the anti-Candy websites are out there, and I think that is why some of the comments I get are (to me) outrageous. I think when I don't fit the personality that people have assumed I possess, then they get angry, or feel let down. Thus, this article is to tell you a bit more about me, so that some people's miss-conceptions about me have more of a chance of melting away without someone being hurt or angry.

I don't feel that this "anti-Candy website" came about because of a misconception about Candy's personality. It has to do with her misconceptions of what Catholicism is about.

These particular points caught my eye:

6. I am not a legalist Christian. I know we have liberty in Christ, therefore, if I see the need to slip on a pair of blue jeans, I have no problem doing so (except that I don't currently own any).

7. I don't believe that you have to be "dresses only" to be saved.

Candy wrote just last week about modest dressing, and a sort of picture of the Christian mother. These are two topics that I consider myself impartial on, because it really doesn't bother me that Candy is dresses only, or that she homeschools. Yet, after reading the two articles, I came away with a definite impression that she was saying that if you are a Christian, you MUST wear only dresses (if you are a woman), homeschool your child, not let your child attend Sunday school, etc.

So yes, this is informative, and changes my impression of her a bit. Candy does, clearly, have a strong personality. Perhaps she is so forceful when she gives her opinion on matters, that she can give the impression that she feels everyone should follow that opinion. It would be helpful to have a way to understand when she is giving her opinion, and when she is giving a declaration of fact (for lack of a better term).

What I am leading to here, is the next point on her list:

10. I believe what the Bible says about how to go to heaven, and that is this:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. -Romans 10:9-11


What I am more confused about Candy than anything else, is why she feels that Catholics are not Christians. This is a very simple criteria for being saved.

1. Catholics confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus.
2. Catholic believe in their heart that God has raised him from the dead.
3. Therefore, Catholics should be saved.

Yet, Candy wrote to Angie:
Angie, it's nice that you believe in Jesus Christ - whatever that means. I believe in Abraham Lincoln, but that's not getting me into heaven. Also, I already told you that I'm not condemning you, GOD has ALREADY done that, and I gave you scripture which proved it.

Clearly, we are working with a different definition of "to believe" here. I suspect (and again, I'm admitting this is total speculation) that Candy would argue that true belief is followed by actions. What she has mentioned before is that you would have a total change of life, and start reading and studying the Bible. If you study the Bible, you would see the errors of the Catholic Church and leave it.

Therefore, to be saved, a Catholic must leave the Catholic Church in order to have a true faith. If Angie, or whoever, remains in the Church, then whatever they are professing, it isn't a true faith in Jesus.

My concern with this is that it sounds like "works salvation" to me. In order to be saved, you must perform the action of leaving the Catholic Church.

Now, one of the criticisms that we receive is that we take apart posts which don't have anything to do with Catholicism. What this post is about, is just sharing some of my thoughts as I read through what Candy has written. Sometimes, there are so many questions that I wish I could ask her, so I could understand her thought process, and so maybe understand her view of Catholicism a little better.

Plus, this blog is really boring when we don't post for days on end, so we might as well have something to discuss! If we have any readers who have similar theological views of salvation to Candy, please feel free to post your understanding of the topic. I know that you don't represent Candy, but it can still be helpful.


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Over at Coffee with Candy

Joy has a good article up over in her blog at: Coffee With Candy: What does Candy really think of the Ten Commandments?









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Tuesday, June 17, 2008

Spider bites

A heavy dose of being a catechized Catholic includes following one's conscience. I feel compelled to share this information. Do with it what you will.

Brown Recluse Spider Bite





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One year anniversary of VTC!

So busy over the weekend it slipped my mind! But yes, VTC is one year old. You can read the post that got us started here.


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just another day of Catholic pondering: Catholic Carnival 177: Wheel of Time

just another day of Catholic pondering: Catholic Carnival 177: Wheel of Time





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Monday, June 16, 2008

Repost: Providing a little perspective

This is a repost of most of an article that I wrote for this blog over six months ago. I thought it might fit in well with our recent discussions. Besides, once we get to over 40 comments on a single post, it's nice to have a new post for comments.

Reading through the comments both on her site, and on this one, I despair that we can ever truly discuss what is involved. On her site, you read about "gossip" and "a website devoted to bashing one person" while here you read about "anti-Catholicism" and "hatred." On this post, I would like to put us on the same page.

First, this blog does not exist to bash Candy. It exists to refute her claims about Catholicism, because she does not allow Catholics to post comments at her page, no matter how polite or well-reasoned. If Candy has concerns about Catholic doctrine, we would like to be able to address them.

Well, you might say, why not just stop going to her page? Why create this page at all? To answer that, let us look at some of the claims of Candy about Catholicism.

In various posts, she has said that the Catholic Church:

* Murders people to keep its secrets and stay in power, even today, and including babies.

* Does not worship God alone, but Mary, the saints, statues, etc.

* Promotes the worship of Satan, and in fact, a Satanic black Mass is more reverent to God than a Catholic Mass

* Knowingly leads millions of souls to Hell

If this is true of Catholicism, then truly, who would not hate such an institution? That is why there is talk of hatred on this site. Candy may not hate Catholics as individuals, but surely, as a Christian, she must hate Catholicism as an institution.

If some told you those things about YOUR church, read it over again and insert Baptist, Lutheran, etc, go ahead . . . if someone told you those things about your church, would you not have a moral obligation to correct them? Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by God, and if you say those things about the Catholic Church, then you are saying them about God himself. It would be a sin for us to remain silent in face of such accusations. THAT is why we get so upset, not because it is true, but because it is such a serious falsehood.

On the other hand, we as Catholics must understand Candy's reasons for posting as she does. If we take her at her word, she REALLY thinks this is true. Our souls are in danger, and she is trying to save us. If Catholics really did believe that about a particular church, then I think we would have the same obligation to try and help them to understand their error. Our methods might differ, but we would have to try.

That is why so many of the non-Catholic visitors to her site do not see Candy as full of hatred, because they focus on her intention of saving. Likewise, they do not see her as "anti-Catholic" because that, to them, would mean that she hates Catholics as individuals.

Has there been "gossip" or personal attacks on Candy at this site? At times, yes. We do apologize for that. When something as near and dear to your heart as your religion is being discussed, people tend to lose their temper. Catholics are only human, too. But we can only discourage personal comments, apologize, and move on. Because what we are really here to discuss is Catholicism. The concerns and the glory, depending on your perspective.

Respectful comments are welcome. Please let the discussion begin.


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Sunday, June 15, 2008

Ladies, I have a super busy week this week and last week was ... well hectic. So I'm putting on comment moderation - at least for a while. If something big happens I'll take it down, but for right now I just need to do this. Thanks for all of your support.

E



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Saturday, June 14, 2008

Where Do They Find The Time?

Candy has mentioned the "anti-Candy blog" a few times now on her site. Whenever she does this, you can count on two things. First, everyone gets curious, hits google, and we get a lot of new visitors. Second, there is a chorus of comments on her blog along the lines of "Surely so-called Christian women should be spending time on their homes and families instead of wasting so much time on a blog."

Since so many women have expressed a concern about our personal lives, I thought I would address that concern. Really, I think it is a matter of perspective. We all find time in our day for things that are important to us, and things that we find relaxing. Many people watch television in the evening. Other people exercise, or read a book. Most people have hobbies. Think of this blog as something that Elena, Erika, and I find important, and something that has become our hobby.

Candy is clearly a busy person, as you can see by her daily schedule on her sidebar. Yet, she maintains a blog that is updated almost daily. In addition, she has written several e-books, totaling over 500 pages in length! Yet, no one seems to feel that she is wasting time that should be spent on her family. She views her work as a ministry, and so do we.

Candy maintains her blog and e-books alone. Visits To Candyland is a group blog. Currently, there are three bloggers, although Elena and I do the majority of the posting. At times Elena is busy, and I handle more of the writing. This past week, I wrote a few posts, but Elena spent more time here. Often, when there is a lull between Candy's Catholic posts, we won't post at all for a week. So we share the workload, and as we don't update daily the way Candy does, the workload is sporadic.

Finally, just for the record, I do almost all of my blog writing during two specific times of the day. I have an hour during my baby's nap where my older children have "quiet time" and I use that hour for computer time. I check my e-mail, blogs, and write a post if I have a topic in mind. Then, after the children are in bed, I have usually several hours before I go to bed. While I once spent a full three hours writing a post, usually I spend less than an hour in the evening on the computer. Usually, if there isn't anything pressing, I use my evening time for relaxing with my husband or reading and don't do more than check my e-mail before bed.

Actually, I think running a "gossip blog" would be much less time consuming. I could just make up some story and throw it up here. In reality, I do spend time researching my articles. It is important that the information people get here reflect actual Catholic doctrine, so if I am unsure of something, I don't just guess, I look it up. I try to provide resources for additional information. In my last post, about the history of anti-Catholicism in America, I spent a lot of time visiting various reputable history sites on the web. I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but only one or two of the links were to Catholic sites. I tried to choose non-Catholic sites so no one could accuse me of present a "Catholic version" of history.

Outside of that one to two hours on the internet, I clean house, cook, educate my children, run errands, take children to activities, visit my 98 year old grandfather, walk the dog, and all those other things that people do during their daily life. I don't make my bread from scratch, or sew clothing, or embroider or scrapbook. Sadly, nor do I exercise much. But I love theology and debating, and so most of my free time is taken up with reading books on theology, discussing theology, and writing theology-centered posts for this blog.

So, I hope this clears up the question of whether or not we are neglecting our homes and children while running the Visits To Candyland blog.


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Friday, June 13, 2008

Guest Blogger - Bible Interpretation

Please welcome Deeny of Simple Joys as our guest blogger today.

I just want to point out a couple problems with Bible Interpretation.

First the only infallible Bibles- are the original manuscripts written in the original languages. Any copy or translation is subject to errors and linguistic problems. Languages do not translate neatly into other languages. Some languages don't have words that convey the same subtle meanings.

You not only have to know the language you are translating from, you have to know it in the context of the time it was written. Lets look at English: less than 100 years old, words that meant one thing at the turn of the century don't mean the same thing today. "Merry and Gay" means something different in 1900 and 2000.

You also have to know current events and the popular culture of the times to understand things. For instance the phrase, "I don't think we are in Kansas anymore", or "That's no moon that's a Space station". We know what these phrases mean because we share a common culture. 2000 years from now will a translator know what these expressions mean? Also lets look at expressions that really make no since, "break a leg", "easy as pie", "down under", " your goose is cooked", " A little bird told me". etc. We know what these expressions mean but will people in the future. There is also problems with hyperbole ie: "The ice cream sundae was as tall as a skyscraper". Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration for linguistic effect.

Now Luther thought that the Bible was perspicuous. Perspicuous means clear obvious. Luther believed one could read the Bible and everyone would come to the clear meaning. However reality has proven that it is not clear. There are thousands of Protestant denominations. I have seen a statistic as high as 33000+. Now out of those how many call themselves Bible Only or Bible Believing Churches? Almost all of them. When members of a congregation disagree with their Pastor over scripture interpretation they just split and start another denomination So the Bible is not Perspicuous.

The Bible itself says that it is a hard book to understand.
2 Peter 3:16 (New American Standard Bible)
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

So you do need to be taught. Some will say, "All I need is the Holy Spirit." That is great until you disagree with your Pastor or someone else. Then which one has the teaching of the Holy Spirit? Of course you are going to assume yourself. I believe the holy Spirit guide us as a whole and does give us a measure of discernment. But we still need teachers.

1 Corinthians 1:28 28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues


Second Problem. No one reads the Bible alone regardless of what they say. I am sure our friends have Bible commentaries on her bookshelf. Many a Fundamentalist has their King James version of the Bible with Scoffield Notes. They also get lots of Bible instruction from their Pastors. Where do their Pastors get their training? From Seminaries. Some big ones are the Dallas Theological Seminary, The Moody Bible Institute, Trinity College Theological Seminary. There are many more. Now all these guys don't agree with one another. So there is a Problem of Authority. And no they don't agree even on the basics.

Third Problem is a Historical one. First Individual reading of the Bible and personal Bible study is a very, very recent in History thing. It is only very recent in our history that People have access to Bibles in their own languages. It is only recently people can afford Bibles. And it is only recently the majority of people are literate and can read the Bible. We are talking less than 500 years. There was no Bible in the form we have it today with all the books compiled into the one Bible for the first 400 years of Christian history. So for 1500 years what did people do? Was God so careless as to leave Christians in the dark for 1500 years? No he gave us a Church. The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

1 Timothy 3:15 (New American Standard Bible) 15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.



So Now as a Protestant You have the daunting task of trying to figure out which Bible believing Church has the truth. If I want to understand the scriptures and know what they meant in the time of Christ I would go as close to the source as I could. What did the early Christian believe. How did they who preserved and wrote the Scriptures interpret them. Not only are there the canonized scriptures we have today. There are also many preserved Church documents by the early Christians that lived within the lifetime of the Apostles The Didache I believe was written about 70 AD. It is an amazing document. Read what the early Christians wrote. They didn't always agree and you can't take their word as 100 percent correct like you can't any Bible commentary. But if you read enough you will get a picture and a consensus of what that early church believed.

In Summary; The Church is universal but it is also visible. If the Church is the Pillar and foundation of Truth which Church is it? The Bible very clearly tells you how to discern correct doctrine. Know from whom you have been taught. If it is from Jesus and the Apostles that Jesus taught it is trustworthy. The whole problem is with Authority. I trust the Church that proves Apostolic Succession, that has a consistent history, and a consistent presence throughout History because I believe God's promise that the gates of hell will not prevail over the Church. There is a consistent rule of faith and standard for all Catholic Churches worldwide which is the Bible and the Catechism.

The Catechism is how those Scripture are interpreted and understood. Whether or not individuals within the Church espouse everything or not. The Individual Congregations are not deciding doctrine individually among themselves like Protestant Non-Denominational Churches. There are no contradictions of Scripture within the Catholic Church, Their is a unity that goes back 2000 years. It is awesome to read the ECF's and know it is the same faith of the Apostles. (Now the ECF's are not infallible and did not agree with each other on every single point but as a whole they are in agreement.) Not a faith that Protestants tried to re-create with just the Bible alone (trying to guess the mind of Jesus and the Apostles and what they might have meant in the many passages of the Bible) 1500 years after the fact. The Catholic Church doesn't have to guess. It had that knowledge and passed it down along with the Holy Scriptures protected by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 16:18 (New American Standard Bible)18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.



Sincerely Deeny, New Catholic Convert (In full communion as of 11/07 ) from 20+ years fundamentalist/ Protestantism
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The Know-Nothings

And before you get all excited, no, this isn't a post where I call Candy names. While I think the discussion has moved on, I had one last topic to write about on the subject of religiously affiliated violence.

Here in America, with our recent history, we really do not have much of a history of wide-spread violence against a particular religious group. The early days of Mormonism are one instance. However, I believe the most widespread and longest lasting persecution was of Catholicism.

Most American Catholics are aware that the spirit of New England's North American settlements was hostile to Catholicism. But few are aware of the vigor and persistence with which that spirit was cultivated throughout the entire colonial period. Few Catholics realize that in all but three of the 13 original colonies, Catholics were the subject of penal measures of one kind or another during the colonial period. In most cases, the Catholic Church had been proscribed at an early date, as in Virginia where the act of 1642 proscribing Catholics and their priests set the tone for the remainder of the colonial period.

Even in the supposedly tolerant Maryland, the tables had turned against Catholics by the 1700s. By this time the penal code against Catholics included test oaths administered to keep Catholics out of office, legislation that barred Catholics from entering certain professions (such as Law), and measures had been enacted to make them incapable of inheriting or purchasing land. By 1718 the ballot had been denied to Catholics in Maryland, following the example of the other colonies, and parents could even be fined for sending children abroad to be educated as Catholics.

In the decade before the American Revolution, most inhabitants of the English colonies would have agreed with Samuel Adams when he said (in 1768): "I did verily believe, as I do still, that much more is to be dreaded from the growth of popery in America, than from the Stamp Act, or any other acts destructive of civil rights."

These early sentiments continued, and only worsened as large amount of Catholic emigrated from Ireland, Germany, and Italy. This grew into what is known as the Nativist Movement.

Immigration grew sharply in the 1830s-40s with the arrival of many Irish and Germans, who were largely Roman Catholic. Simultaneously, a Protestant revival flourished in a climate of economic change and insecurity. Evangelists demonized Catholics as immoral "Papists" who followed authoritarian leaders, imported crime and disease, and stole native jobs. Protestant workingmen burned the Ursuline Convent near Boston and rioted in several cities. Thirty people were killed and hundreds injured in Philadelphia in 1844. By the mid-1850s, the nativist American Party won six governorships and controlled legislatures in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and California. They enacted numerous laws that penalized immigrants (as well as newly annexed Mexicans), including the first literacy tests for voting, which disfranchised the Irish in particular. Attacking the "un-American" foreigner served as a diversion for those unwilling to acknowledge America's irreconcilable difference of slavery versus abolition, an issue that split nativists. As sectional conflict sharpened, the American Party virtually collapsed by 1860.

The largest group which grew out of Nativism was called the Know-Nothings.

The Know-Nothings wanted to use government power to preserve their vision of a particular kind of Anglo-Saxon Protestant society. Their state and national platforms demanded that immigration be limited, that politics be "purified" by limiting officeholding to native-born Americans, and that a 21-year wait be imposed before an immigrant could become a citizen and vote. They also sought to limit the sale of liquor, to restrict public-school teaching to Protestants, and to have the Protestant version of the Bible read daily in classrooms.
Among the acts of violence which were stirred up by anti-Catholic sentiments was the burning of an Ursuline convent. The catalyst for this event, was the circulation of stories which were very similar to the Sister Charlotte story which Candy has posted previously, and which was on her sidebar for several months.

From the actual article in the Boston newspaper:

The subject of universal interest in the city today has been the work of destruction accomplished by a mob, last night and this morning, at and about the Ursuline Convent, on Mount Benedict, in Charlestown—resulting in the complete sacking of the principal building itself—a four-story handsome brick edifice, with wings, and front about eighty feet—together with the farm house, cottage, and every other building upon the premises, and also with the demolition or consumption by fire of all the furniture and chattels of every description, appurtant to the whole.

In 1844, there were a series of riots in Philadelphia which originated over the issue of religion in public schools. Catholics had asked to be able to read their own Bibles during the morning devotional reading, but this was not permitted.

In May, two Catholic churches were burned down, a convent was attacked, and a riot broke out which ended in 14 killed (between both sides) and many more injured.

In July, a riot broke out again. When a church was again attacked, the militia got involved and another 15-20 people were killed, with many more injured.

The incidents in Philadelphia are credited with ultimately creating the Catholic school system in America.

In 1853, Cincinnati saw a similar riot, but one with less tragic results. A mob of 600 men set out to burn the Cathedral to the ground, but after the police fired upon the mob and injured several, the mob disbursed. No one was killed.

In 1854, numerous churches were burned down, blown up, or simply vandalized.

The last year of violence was 1855, which saw the "Bloody Monday Massacre" in Louisville, Ky. You can read several articles from the Louisville paper here:
A remembrance on the 150th anniversary of one of the deadliest anti-immigrant riots in American history, the Bloody Monday Massacre of August 6, 1855 was held in Louisville Kentucky on Saturday, August 6th, 2005. The instigators of the massacre were the Know Nothings, a Nativist political party who were fearful of losing control of the Louisville City Council. They were driven by an anti-immigrant vitriolic press to attack and slaughter as many as 150 German and Irish immigrants who lived in the poorest sections of Louisville.

In the aftermath, more than 10,000 Catholics left Louisville for other cities, having a huge impact on the population of the city. The actual number of dead remains disputed. Most accounts leave it at "at least 22" but a letter written by the Bishop of Louisville says that 100 were killed. The Louisville paper also weighs in on the conflicting accounts:

Bloody Monday has also left a burden for Louisville historians, who continue to wrestle with the sketchy, partisan accounts of it that appeared in the city's newspapers and official records.

"We don't argue about what happened in the earthquakes of 1811-12," said historian and Metro Councilman Tom Owen. "We don't argue about what happened in the 1937 flood or the tornado of 1890. But professionals debate both the causation and the result of Bloody Monday."


Within ten years, the Know-Nothings and the Nativist movement had died down, and the violence had ceased. Clearly, the same sort of tales of murderous Catholics, and convents torturing young girls are still floating around out there, popular in some quarters.

Because this has been a persistent topic at Candy's blog, I created a "Those Killer Catholics" tag for such articles. If you click on it at the bottom of this article, you can find other entries I've written on similar lines, including the Inquisition(s) and the Sister Charlotte articles.

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A few last things

Angie, if you could verify that Lori apologized, that would be great. Feel free to e-mail me.

Now this is Candy's latest:

A few people have told me it was wrong to publish the "private" comment Susan left me.

First off, the comment wasn't private. She gave me NO indication whatsoever, at all, that it was private. Now, you nay sayers may just go away now. Bye bye. :-)

PS - When someone leaves me a private comment, they say in the comment that it is private. When someone leaves me a public comment - then I see no reason to not discuss said comment on my blog - since that is the public area that they left the public comment. :-?


A lot of bloggers do this. I like to ask specifically if I can share something or not instead of assuming. However, in this case Susan says that she did tell Candy that this was private. It was private for Candy's wellbeing, not Susan's!



For the past two days, there was a person who was mad at me, because I didn't publish their comment. I don't even remember the comment, but they must have said something pretty nasty to me, because according to them, I had banned them from commenting - maybe I did.


Pretty nasty in Candy's mind = disagree with me on anything. Candy simply will not tolerate chastisement or disagreement.

So, did it stop there? No, this "Christian" proceeded to harrass me, by sending me multiple emails for the past few days filled with such sick, vile hatred, that I can't believe a person would think such means things - including attacking my family.


I would like to publicly say that I do not believe this. Candy has said the same things about me, but since she does NOT allow my words to be published, it is only her words that get out there and I had nothing to prove my innocence. In this case Susan very wisely published her words on her blog so we can see the gist of the discussion.

I set up a filter in my email, so that I cannot get said person's emails anymore, and I blocked them from commenting here (from the IP I got from their emails to me) and blocked their IP from getting access to this page.


If you can't read her page or comment, she ahs blocked your IP. This can be overcome in two ways.
1. Subscribe to her RSS feed on Bloglines or Google. As long as she publishes a feed you can read her posts although not the comments. (Now Candy may take down her feed. this is only a win/win. It means NO ONE else can read her RSS feed either.)
3. You can buy Hide My IP. I have it and so does Tracy and when we need it, it works well. It costs $30 though.


When I ban people from commenting, it's either because they put up an insanely rude comment, or they keep bugging me.


More the latter than the former I suspect. Any disagreement bugs her.

Hope that clears that up. For the record I no longer e-mail Candy and I don't attempt to comment on her site. I keep everything out in the open here.


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Chicken fried apologetics

I love this!

Two weeks later, the DH picked up the test results on his way home. He gave it to me. DD is severly allergic to chicken. Chicken?! This is not the information I expected. I had a few options (pay attention. this is the good part): a. ignore my husband bringing me the information (he wasn't the actual source of information. just a messenger. he could be wrong), b. disbelieve the test results (they can't really know by testing her blood), or c. accept the results and stop eating chicken. I didn't want to believe it. I really like chicken. But it didn't matter what I wanted to believe. The source of truth (in this case the doctor and the allergy test) said it was true. My feelings and preference did not matter in light of the truth.

So, how does this apply to our discussion of truth and the Bible? You and I are discussing our opinions of how the universe operates and who will and will not be saved. But our opinions do not matter. You are I are not sources of truth and information on this topic. We must go to a source of information. In my illustration, the source of information was a doctor. What source of information will we agree upon for the discussion of salvation and eternal souls? Candy and I agree that the Bible is the word of God. It is true and is to be trusted. My own opinions and ideas must be put aside as I accept this source of truth.

So, to finally answer your question Candy's posts stem from her belief that there is a source of truth outside of us. That source is the Bible which is the word of God (his message to all people). I wholeheartedly adhere to this belief as well. If you notice, Candy does not refer to her own feelings very often in these discussions. She is constantly refering to the Bible as the source of her understanding. It is the truth!

highdesert, I hope that answered you question. The belief in a source of ultimate truth is loosing popularity in our culture. But, I don't care what is popular, the Bible is still true. PS, my daughter feels a lot better since I stopped cooking chicken.



Actually she refers to her understanding of the Bible as the source of truth. There's a difference! And while Christians do revere the Scriptures, not all Christians agree on all interpretations of what those scriptures mean! Which is why we have three main branches of Christianity, with the Protestant branch severely splintered! Whose interpretation is the correct one? On Candy's blog, it is her interpretation. That's fine. My issue is when she condemns others to hell for not adhering to that same interpretation.


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Ladies, please

I invited a commenter named Lori to visit our site. She wrote this today on Candy's blog:

I have gone to a website recently that is a "bash Candy" website. And quite honestly, I was nausiated by it. For crying out loud - so what if you don't agree with what she says. So what if she doesn't agree with what you say. She doesn't come searching you out to destroy.


I don't want to give anyone any more opportunities to write this. I want them to come here and be overwhelmed by our
1. Christian charity.
2. Logic and reason.
3. Use of scripture.

I am going to go through the comments (again) and ruthlessly take out any ad hominems towards Candy - and I mean any! Gals, I have enough on my plate, I don't need the extra work!! If you could police yourself, think about what you wrote yesterday and if it says anything about Candy's mental health, motives, personal life etc... then take it down yourself!

There's only one way to win this and it is going to come from holiness and intelligence, not by anger and emotional rhetoric! We may not change minds or win converts, but if we gain respect and understanding that's good too! Help me out here!




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Thursday, June 12, 2008

Helping Visits to Candyland

Well we had over 1300 posts so far today - really unbelievable!

Many of you have thanked us and we really appreciate it. If you want to really help us out, help us spread the word about this blog. Here's how.

1. If you have a blog, link to us in a posting and in your blog roll.
2. Encourage your friends to read us and link to us too!
3. Book marks baby - if something we wrote speaks to you, send it to facebook, twitter, digg it, myspace - anywhere you keep an account. The more buzz we generate the better it will be!
4. The Homeschool Blog awards still has Candy linked on their front page. It would be nice for them to hear from new folks complaining about having these sorts of things one click away from their "family friendly" blog.

Thanks for your comments, prayers and support.
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Note to Tanya

Candy or who ever, I totally understand what you are saying here. I was born into a total catholic family. I remember mass all the time and I even attended the class to receive communion. I did not know who Jesus really was, until my dad took me to a christian church. I knew of Jesus, mostly Mary, but I was never taught how to except Jesus.


Well if you went to communion class you learned how to accept Jesus in your hands and on your tongue! I'm not sure how a 2nd grader gets through the first communion year learning more about Mary than Jesus. Even back in the dark ages when I made my first communion they had that part right!


I remember the first time I was hurt by the RC church. My dad and mom was going to get a divorce and my dad wrote the pope to get permission.


Well your dad didn't write the pope. He probably contacted his local diocese for an annullment.


The pope granted dad and mom's divorce,


The church doesn't grant divorces and the Pope doesn't handle them at all. This was handled at the diocesan level. What probably happened is after the divorce your father filed for an annullment.


but forbad my dad to ever take communion.


A Catholic can only not receive communion if he is not in a state of grace. In this situation if your father remarried without an annulment or married someone who needed an annulment. It is possible for separated and divorced Catholics who do not remarry to receive communion. Both of my parents did for decades!


I have issues with this.


Most likely because you don't understand it.


When did anyone have the right to keep someone from a act of God that is so beautiful. I am not saying that there are not people attending the church that have not excepted Jesus as their savior. But it is so round about that most people do not see it. It does sadden me, Jesus saved my life and my marriage. Jesus also, I believe, hate religion and traditions. He just wants our hearts and obediance. Why is that so hard to believe.


Wow, Candy is going to have issues with this.
1. She doesn't see Catholic communion as a beautiful act of God, so don't expect her sympathy with that one!
2, Candy says you just have to believe. She might quibble with you about the obedience thing too.

I totally see what you are doing, and I will just keep praying that more RC are effected by what you are saying and that we would be open to love.


Well what exactly is she dong? And how will we be "effected." I could perhaps be more open to Candy love if it didn't feel like she was trying to disembowel me with dull scissors. But hey... I'm still trying to make nice!



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Fun with fallacies

Angie, it's nice that you believe in Jesus Christ - whatever that means. I believe in Abraham Lincoln, but that's not getting me into heaven. Also, I already told you that I'm not condemning you, GOD has ALREADY done that, and I gave you scripture which proved it.


"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." -John 3:18


Holy Cow Batman... with Candy you are damned if you do and damned if you don't! Angie believes in Jesus, but God has already condemned her, (according to Candy) because she "believeth not" because belief = what Candy believes, the way Candy believes.

Aside from the inductive reasoning error, how many strawmen and ad hominems can we pile on poor Angie!


You are moving to calling me names such as "pompous," and calling the beautiful readers of this site "blind," because you are the pompous and blind one. You refuse to open your eyes to the truth, and you are becoming highly offended, because you know you can't refute the things I've told you, because what I tell you is of God
.


Inductive reasoning fallacy
Appeal to ridicule
Inductive and deductive reasoning fallacies.

How do I know this stuff? I read it in the Bible, without an church having to tell me what the Bible means. I really wish you'd try that. :-(

What makes me right isn't that my confidence in the truth shows through - what makes me right, is that GOD HIMSELF told me the truth, via His Holy Word, and I read it and BELIEVE it.


At which point I raise my weary hand, point to the rest of Christendom who have various disagreements with Candy on other points, and ask what makes her right and everyone else wrong.

I never wrote an article ripping any woman apart in regards to Roman Catholicism. You need to get your head straight, and learn to distinguish the difference between the stories you make up in your head, and actual facts.


Well we now know that's a whopper. Susan's (Saved Sinner) side of the story here.


I would say thank you for your prayers, but yours are empty and meaningless. The Rosary is not in the Bible, neither are any official Roman Catholic prayers.


I'm going to blog about that in depth later. I have a bit about it up here.

I have some heartfelt advice for you: Instead of attacking those who are trying to help you - (yes, you are attacking me and my readers by calling us names) why not act as the wise person that proverbs tells us of, and heed instruction.


petitio principii



According to the Bible, you are acting the fool. You are attacking people who love you, and are trying to help you.



Appeal to
Emotion
Spite
Fear
Consequence


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Welcome!

I see that we have had 300 new visitors since yesterday, and Candy's latest "information" on Catholicism is generating a lot of conversation in our comments. So, let me welcome all of our new visitors.

Despite what Candy says, we are not here to criticize Candy personally, but to refute her information on Catholicism. Please review our commenting guidelines on the sideline before commenting. A lot of people who visit here are Catholics who are upset, so please take a deep breath before venting. You can contact Elena and myself privately by e-mail if you really want to want to discuss anything of a personal nature.

Perhaps some of you found your way here because you have questions about Catholicism, but you aren't quite sure you are ready to believe Candy's version of Catholicism. After all, it is difficult to believe that the more than 1 billion Catholics worldwide are playing nice, just waiting for the right opportunity to torture their non-Catholic neighbors.

So, you can find links to our articles refuting various posts by Candy on the right sidebar. We also have a search box up top, in case you'd like to find out what we have written about Jesus being the one Mediator, for example. Just type in "mediator" or "Pope" to find our posts on whatever you are curious about. You can also post questions in the comments section, and we will do our best to answer them.

Finally, here is a repost of some of my posts on the more common questions which Catholics get asked:

Why did the Catholic Church ADD books to the Bible?

We didn't. Non-Catholics removed books from the Bible. Read more about the Catholic Bible.

Why does the Catholic Church believe in salvation by works when that is contradicted by Scripture. Why do you believe that Mary is a mediatrix when scripture says that Jesus is the ONE Mediator?

We don't, and we don't.

Why do you worship statues? Don't you know that's idolatry?

We might be kneeling in prayer, but we aren't worshiping.

Why do you pray the rosary with its vain repetition?

Because it isn't repetition that is the problem, it's the vain part.

But you have to admit that the word purgatory isn't found anywhere in Scripture!

The word might not be, but the concept is.

Requiring celibacy for priests isn't biblical. Even Peter was married!

Actually, we have married priests within the Catholic Church today. A picture of a priest with his family is the top picture of this post, explaining the tradition (with a small 't') of priestly celibacy.

Why confess to a sinful priest, when you can confess your sins directly to God?

Read the Biblical basis for Confession.

Plus, the ever-popular Tradition versus Scripture topic. Read here, here, and here for previous posts. Confused about the difference between Tradition and tradition, try here.



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The latest rant:

No, receiving the Eucharist in the Catholic Mass is not at all receiving Christ. Christians don't believe that some round cracker in a monstrance is the literal body of Jesus, and Christians don't believe that a cup of wine is literally the blood of Jesus. You don't receive Jesus by canabolizing and vampirizing Him every week. Jesus isn't a cracker, nor has He ever been. If you are going to say that Jesus was literally saying that we are to eat and drink Him, then be consistant with your theology. To be consistent in your theology, then you'd also have to conceed that God is a very large bird with feathered wings:


John 6:47-63,66 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum. Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" . . . After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.



Well, if your theology says that we are literally to eat and drink Jesus, then God is a giant hen, and no one can possibly become born again as in John 3:16, as that just wouldn't jive.


There are precursors to the Eucharist and the importance it plays in our life throughout the old testament. From Malchezadek to manna, to the passover supper itself, God worked his plan for this special meal throughout history until Christ finally initiated the institution of the Eucharist at the last supper. I find Candy's argument to be very childish and lacking any type of biblical exegesis or understanding.

You said: "And Candy, if I choose to say I want to have faith and put that faith into action in the way I live, who are you to condemn me for it?"

I didn't and don't condemn you. You've ~already been condemened~, by God Himself:


Candy has absolutely no business telling anyone that they are condemned. She does not speak for God. The bible also says: "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."


You may have all of the sincerity in the world for your religion, but that still won't get you into heaven. When the end comes, you'll find that you were just sincerely wrong. The truth has been presented here to you, so it's up to you to accept or deny it. I believe that every person in hell will know they are there, because that's what they chose.


You know, I think the same thing about Candy. I guess time will tell.

Also, Protestants didn't take books away from the Bible - the RC church ADDED books to the Bible, of which the Bible specifially says ~not~ to do. :-(


I will refer you to Where We Got the Bible by Graham.
It is true that many Fathers and Doctors and writers of the Church in the first three centuries from time to time mention by name many of the various Gospels and Epistles; and some, as we come nearer 397, even refer to a collection already existing in places. For example, we find Constantine, the first Christian Emperor, after the Council of Nicea, applying to Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea, and a great scholar, to provide fifty copies of the Christian Scriptures for public use in the churches of Constantinople, his new capital. This was in 332 A.D. The contents of these copies are known to us, perhaps (according to some, even probably) one of these very copies of Eusebius' handiwork has come down to us; but they are not precisely the same as our New Testament, though very nearly so. Again, we find lists of the books of the New Testament drawn up by St Athanasius, St Jerome, St Augustine, and many other great authorities, as witnessing to what was generally acknowledged as inspired Scripture in their day and generation and country; but I repeat that none of these corresponds perfectly to the collection in the Bible that we possess now; we must wait till 397 for the Council of Carthage, before we find the complete collection of New Testament books settled as we have it today, and as all Christendom had it till the sixteenth century, when the Reformers changed it.




And, please stop handling the Word of God deceitfully. There is no "hail Mary prayer" in the Bible. Luke 1:28 says:

"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

That was NOT any prayer, that was a GREETING from the angel who about to tell Mary her was mission from God. God has a mission for all of his true followers.

And the other scripture you quoted, Luke 1:41-42 also does not contain any "hail Mary prayer." It says:

"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."

No prayer there either. Just a statment of fact. Mary was blessed to be doing the will of God, just as any follower is blessed if they do God's will. Stop attacking Mary by attempting to deify her. :-(

From EWTN

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Luke 1:28 "And coming to her, he said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you."

The Greek kecharitomene means favored by grace, graced. Its tense suggests a permanent state of being "highly favored," thus full of grace. Charity, the divine love within us, comes from the same root. God is infinite Goodness, infinite Love. Mary is perfect created goodness, filled to the limit of her finite being with grace or charity.

Blessed art thou among women

Luke 1:41-42a "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women..."

Luke 1:48 "For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed."

Among all women is a way to say the highest/greatest etc. of a group in Semitic languages (these words would likely have been spoken in Aramaic). Mary is being called the greatest of all women, greater than Ruth, greater than Sarah, greater than EVE! Since Eve was created immaculate (without original sin), Mary must have been conceived immaculate. And, although Eve fell into sin by her own free will, Mary must have corresponded to God's grace and remained sinless. She could not otherwise be greater than Eve. Thus, as the Fathers of the Church unanimously assert, Mary is the New Eve who restores womanhood to God's original intention and cooperates with the New Adam, her Son, for the Redemption of the world.

Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus

Luke 1:42b "and blessed is the fruit of your womb."

Jesus is Mary's fruit. Good fruit does not come from anything but a good tree (Mt. 7:17-18)! The all-holy Son of God could not be the fruit of any other tree than the Immaculate Virgin.

Holy Mary, Mother of God

Luke 1:43 "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Kyrios is the Greek word used by the Jews in the Septuagint Bible (Greek translation) for Yhwh, the Divine Name of God. In her greeting of Mary, Elizabeth is saying: "How is it that the mother of my God should come to me." Against the heresies of the 4th and 5th centuries which tried to split the Person of Jesus into two, divine and human, denying one or the other, the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD proclaimed Mary Theotokos (God-bearer, i.e. mother of God). Jesus is a single Person, a Divine Person, the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Trinity. To be mother of the Person Jesus is to be mother of a Person who is God. Mary's title protects this truth against errors which emphasize or deny, either the divinity or humanity of the Lord.

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Luke 2:35 "...and you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

John 2:5 "His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."

Mary sees a need and appeals to Her Son to satisfy it. He does. We turn to Mary to ask her to intercede with her Son in our daily spiritual and material needs, but especially at the hour of our death. At that moment our salvation hangs in the balance as the devil makes his final foray to deter us from the path to God (Rev. 2:10). It is not surprising, therefore, that both the Hail Mary and the Our Father conclude with an appeal to be delivered from the evil one.


According to the below scripture, I am as blessed, or more so, than Mary was:
I refer everyone back to the extensive blogging in the month of May on this topic. Candy is a lot of things. More blessed than the Blessed Mother is not one of them.



I hope you now see my point... You are intrepreting the Bible through the filter of the RC church cult, instead of reading it and interpreting it for yourself. Your church has taken the words of conversation from an angle, and from Elizabeth, and have turned them into a prayer to Mary. The Bible NEVER EVER tells us to pray to Mary. It would sure be a lot easier if you were saved, then God's Holy Spirit would guide and enlighten you. I will pray that you will heed God's call. He loves you so very much; please don't turn your back on Him for the traditions of man.
I know even before I started this blog, people would read Candy's blog and become very upset and discouraged. Don't be. I have been reading her blog for over a year now. These are not the writings of a scholar, historian, expert or spiritual leader of any kind. Her arguments are easily debunked- we do it here all of the time. Just take a deep breath, and pray for her. Say a rosary, go to adoration, offer an intention at mass, or just say a simple prayer. You'll feel better and if we offer prayers together God will find a way to use them in a way that brings His name glory. Just focus on that.



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Answering a Question

A commentor on Keeping the Home posed this question in the latest anti-Catholic post:

“just wanted to somewhat address Angie's comment with a question. As a former Catholic who did and does know the Catechism I want to know why you would think Christ founded the RCC? Where in the Word of God does it say that? Um, Jesus-Jew, Paul-Jew, Peter-Jew ...Messianic phropechy fulfilled.On what Scripture do you base your argument that Jesus found the RCC? I really am interested to know how you think this, and I am not being antagonistic.”

I do understand that you are not being antagonistic but are just looking for why Catholic believe that Jesus founded the Roman Catholic Church. I would like to direct you to Catholic Answers website. You will find an article about this very subject called Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth. This article will hopefully help you to understand the Catholic point of view which is that when Jesus came to earth he established his Church, Matt. 16-18, and the Catholic Church can trace it’s history from that moment.

You might also like to read Church History . If you follow the link please scroll down to section III, Early Church History From Christ up to the Edict of Milan (313), that is the beginning of the part that is relevant to the topic.

I hope this helps.

Thank you for asking in such a gracious manner!


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Wednesday, June 11, 2008

Reply to Robyn

Honestly, as a Catholic, I must admit that at first I was offended by the stuff about Catholics. But as I came here for avice about home keeping, and love what you have to say about it. you have some really fantastic ideas! So I take what I need from this site, and leave the rest. After all it is your blog, you are absolutely entitled to what you say. I may not like all of it, but that is the beauty of clicking on things, if I don't like it, I don't have to read it. But I will continue to read the home keeping stuff as I think you are talented in it. I wasn't born for that stuff I have to work at it, but your ideas help me balence my own struggles to keep organized.
Robyn Van Sanford



Interesting perspective Robyn.
Candy has a nice homemaking site. But there are lots of places on the net that are not vicious and hateful towards your Catholic faith where you can get the same and even more information! Check out some of the fine links in our side bar under the home management binder link.

Two of the spiritual acts of mercy are to admonish the sinner and instruct the ignorant. You're hardly doing anyone any favors when you "click" away from things you don't want to read because they make you uncomfortable. I think gleaning ideas from an anti-Catholic site because they help you in your own organization struggles is a bit selfish. Patting yourself on the back at said site is probably sinful.




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Non-Atrocious Catholics

Candy has pointed out that Catholics are not immune to getting caught up in racial or political prejudice, and have cooperated in genocide. This is not something I need to deny. It is sad, but true. However, you cannot say that this is the case with all Catholics, or that Catholicism as an institution encourages this, at least in modern times. I thought it worthwhile to profile a few Catholics who courageously stood up against regimes, and tried to stop genocide when it occurred.

In the comments, the treatment of the Indians was mentioned. Often in history books, the enslavement of the Indians of the Americas was stated as if there were no dissenting voices. However, Bartolome de las Casas was a priest who spent fifty years of his life fighting for the rights of the Indians. As bishop, he instructed his priests to deny absolution to men who profited from Indian slave labor. Although he did not win his fight for Indian freedom, he fought tirelessly on their behalf for most of his life.



The role of of the Church in World War II is one where many accusations such as Candy's are often made. However, there are many heroes here, too.

I've already mentioned the priest wing at Dachau, so let me introduce you to one of the 2500 inhabitants. Titus Brandsma was a Dutch priest. In 1935 he wrote against the anti-Jewish marriage laws. He wrote continually against the Nazi party, and tried to get Dutch newspapers not to print Nazi propaganda. In 1942, he was sent to Dachau, where he asked his fellow prisoners to pray for their guards while being beaten and starved. He was used for medical experiments, and eventually killed by lethal injection.


There was a German movie made in 2004 about one of the priests in Dachau, called The Ninth Day. You can read more about it in a review here.





Maximilian Kolbe

In Auschwitz you could find Fr. Maximilian Kolbe, seen above. Fr. Kolbe sheltered 3,000 Polish refugees at his friary, 2000 of which were Jews. In 1941 he wrote in a publication ""No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?"

He was taken prisoner after this publication, and taken to a concentration camp. Fr. Kolbe volunteered to die in the place of a man who had a family. He and ten other prisoners were starved two two weeks, when those who hadn't died were killed by injection. During the entire time, Fr. Kolbe led the prisoners in prayer, and kept up their spirits.

The prisoner that Maximilian Kolbe died for, Franciszek Gajowniczek, survived the war and was reunited with his wife. He lived until 1995.


Irene Sendler was a Polish Catholic nurse who saved 2500 Jewish children from death. She even kept records, so that the children could be reunited with their parents after the war, though in many cases, their parents did not survive. Although she was taken prisoner, tortured, and sentenced to death but was rescued by the Polish resistance. She lived to be 98 years old.


Sara Salkahazi, an Hungarian nun, is credited with saving the lives of 100 Jews. Altogether her order saved 1000. She was shot on the banks of the Danube river, along with four Jewish women, and a co-worker who was not a member of the order.





pius-xii

While it is currently in fashion to blame Pope Pius XII for not doing enough to save the Jews, I would be remiss if I didn't mention him as someone who worked against the Nazi regime. Pope Pius authorized false baptismal certificates to save Jewish lives. He issued visas to allow Jews to move to other countries, and encouraged monasteries and convents to shelter Jews. He spoke out on several occasions against the Nazi party, and immediately after the war he was hailed by media around the world as a "lone voice" against the Nazi party. (How soon they forget!). Israel Zoller, the Chief Rabbi of Rome during World War II, actually converted to Catholicism after the war. He took the baptismal name Eugenio, the birth name of Pius XII, in gratitude for all he had done on behalf of Jews during the war.

"No Christmas sermon reaches a larger congregation than the message Pope Pius XII addresses to a war-torn world at this season. This Christmas more than ever
he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent."
The New York Times, December 25, 1942

"When fearful martyrdom came to our people, the voice of the
pope was raised for its victims."
Golda Meir, Israeli Foreign (October 1958)

". . . the Catholic Church, under the pontificate of Pope Pius XII was instrumental
in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000,
Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."
Pinchas E. Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews (1967)


For these Catholics, and the hundreds of others who worked against evil at risk to themselves, we should be deeply grateful.


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Catholic Atrocities

Many people accuse the Catholic Church of countless atrocities. There were the inquisitions, the Crusades, we killed Jews, we killed protestants. Some claim that Catholics are only enjoying their newfound acceptance by other Christians, and will soon rise up again to kill more multitudes.

Many of these accusations come from Jack Chick and Dave Hunt. Click on their names to learn the false nature of their claims.

What you must remember, is that the Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years. During much of that time, killing someone who disagreed with you theologically was perfectly acceptable. This was not contained to Catholicism. Let me provide some examples:
  • The followers of John Hus, known as the Hussites, were quite a force in their day.As Zwingli spread protestantism in Switzerland, protestant forces declared war on the Catholic cantons.
  • Witch trials encompassed all forms of Christianity, in Europe and America. Lutheran Germany had the highest execution rate.
  • The Thirty Years War, one of the bloodiest in Europe, was primary one of religion. It began when Calvinists threw two Catholic members of the Bohemian royal council from a window.
  • The Know-Nothings incited riots which were responsible for a number of church burnings, the burning of an Ursaline convent, and the death of dozens of Catholics.

At the same time, modern scholarship is uncovering how much of the Catholic "atrocities" in history were based on anti-Catholic bias. Read the truth about the Spanish Inquisition.

Philip Jenkins, Professor of History and Religious Studies at Pennsylvania State University (non-Catholic), writes in his book, The New Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice:

"There never was such a thing as a Church-wide inquisition, a terrifying monolith comparable to the NKVD or the Gestapo. It is more accurate to think of inquisitions that operated extensively in some areas in a highly decentralized way, although they notionally acted under papal authority. Inquisitions were important at certain times and places but never existed in other areas."

"The main problem about speaking of 'the Inquisition' is that it suggests that religious repression of this sort was a Catholic prerogative. In fact, before the Enlightenment, virtually all religious traditions on occasion acted similarly when they had the power to do so..This indictment of religious savagery and intolerance applies to.all the Protestant nations, even relatively liberal ones such as England and the Netherlands..Equally blameworthy would be Muslims, Hindus, and even Buddhists. After all, in the seventeenth century, when Catholic inquisitions were at their height, the Buddhist/Shinto nation of Japan was engaged in a ferocious attempt to stamp out the deviant faith of Christianity through torture and massacre. In just forty years, these Japanese religious persecutions killed far more victims than the Spanish Inquisition would in all the centuries of its existence."


You can easily find similar information about the Crusades and Catholic involvement, or lack of it, in World War II.

While it turns my stomach to quote it, here is what Candy wrote in a recent comment:

This makes this quite an enigma, then doesn't it? Why would someone claiming to be Christian, defend a cult that has killed MILLIONS of Christians? A cult that still says in their cannon that anyone who believes they are saved by Christ alone are anethama?

Why would you stand up for a church that in the 1940s had it's priests in Serbia take off their preist garb, and TORTURE millions of those people to death, because they were protestant. They were sick! They ripped babies from their mother's wombs while making the fathers watch. They cut nursing women's breasts off. They made keepsake necklaces out of human eyeballs, they peeled people's skin OFF. They collected human heads that they had decaptiated. They smiled for photos while they were chopping off heads.

They waved the protestant's head in the air in victory and smiled for more pictures.

Look back through history - the REAL history, not the revised history... You'll see that each time the Roman Catholic church started being ecumenical and nice nice to Christians, it was up until the large number of Christians trusted Roman Catholics, and then the slaughter began. If you didn't convert, you were tortured to death. Why torture? Because their cannon teaches that the more pain a person suffers before dying, the less time they'll have to spend in "purgatory." :-( Those priests tortured people to death out of love??? :-(

Look back in Ireland and France. The Catholics made nice nice with the protestants, and then they went in for the KILL.
After a bit of research, I found that Candy is probably referring to a Croatian death camp called Jasenovac. You can read more about it here:

From August 1941 to April 1945, hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, and Romas, as well as anti-fascists of many nationalities, were murdered at the death camp known as Jasenovac. Estimates of the total numbers of men, women and children killed there range from 300,000 to 700,000. And yet, despite the scale of the crimes committed there, most of the world has never heard of Jasenovac.

Following the Nazi invasion and dismemberment of Yugoslavia in April 1941, the "Independent State of Croatia" was established as a pro-Nazi government. It was dedicated to a clerical-fascist ideology influenced both by Nazism and extreme Roman Catholic fanaticism. On coming to power, the Ustashe Party dictatorship in Croatia quickly commenced on a systematic policy of racial extermination of all Serbs, Jews and Romas living within its borders.
I suppose one might as easily point a finger at the Nazis, which were based in Lutheran Germany, and killed many, many Catholics. Dachau had a special "priest block" which held over 2500 Catholic priests. Clearly, Jasenovac was not targeted at just protestants, as Jews and Gypsies (or Roma) were killed as well.

While Catholicism is mixed in with the atrocities in Croatia, it is not the cause. The constant struggles between Croatia and Serbia are ethnic in origin, and have been in existence for centuries. If they all became born-again fundamentalists tomorrow, I think that they would still try to kill each other, because their deep-rooted hated means more to them than their religion.

As I have written before, violence in the name of religion is not restrained to Catholicism. Even protestants have, on occasion, persecuted and killed Catholics in the name of religion.

I find this one of Candy's more disturbing posts. It is very sad that she feels that one day, all Catholics will rise up and torture all non-Catholics to death. No wonder she feels we are Satanic. Truly, the church which she describes IS a Satanic one. However, it is not the Catholic Church.

Read a follow-up to this post, Non-Atrocious Catholics.

If you are new to our website, you can find links to some of our other posts about Catholicism here.

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A very quick post on Candy's latest

Candy's latest at www.keepingthehome.com: Roman Catholicism

This is Candy's response to a lady named Susan. I wasn't really clear on what exactly Susan was asking, but here is Candy's response with my comments:

Please move your eyes to the top of this webpage. What is this blog called? Answer? ~Keeping The Home~. This is not the "Roman Catholicism is a Cult" page. However true that statement is, that is not the main focus of my page.



Very true and if she stuck to that I would have no problems with her at all.

In total, I'm not posting more or less about the RC cult than I since I started blogging years ago. I post about RCs in spurts, as I feel the leading. I currently see no need to post anything new, as I've shown the facts plain and clear in several of the articles under the "Deceptions Revealed" section lower down in the left hand side bar of this site.


We have the rebuttals to her anti-Catholic articles in our side bar too. Her articles were very easy to disprove.


I'm sure I'll post more about that dangerous (and richest) cult more in future blog posts, but that is not what's on my mind right now, and since this is MY blog, I simply blog about what's currently on my mind. :-)



Interestingly my inner city Catholic parish is spilling a lot of red ink with tithes down, probably due to the tanking economy. Me thinks that if this is a cult, we're not very good at it!! LOL!!

I don't care if so and so closes their webpage about me or not. Frankly, the existence of that page is further confirmation that I am doing the work of God - proclaiming the truth from the "mountain tops." That page has led RCs to this page, and praise God that many of them have left the RC church and have become saved, born again Christians. Some of them have become my dear friends.



Candy once told me that she wrote whatever she wanted to write because "freedom is a wonderful thing." I wrote back, "Yes, and ignorance is bliss." She declined to respond further.

As I have said several times before, it's not too hard to convert someone with one foot out of the church and the other on a banana peel. Of the former RC I have "met" through Candy's blog, none impressed me with their mastery of the catechism.

There are quite a few anti-Candy websites out there. People tell me of them, but I am not a visitor of them. I have better things to do with my time, rather than read filth and slander. :-)


Another reason why are trying to take the high road on this blog. Despite her protestations, we know Candy reads here quite often. Ya'll can wave to her from the comment section (Insert group wave here!!)


Speaking of time, I have a lot of projects I'm working on today, so I must be off.

I hope this cleared up your questions, Susan, and I pray that the Lord will open your heart to HIS truth. READ your Bible - but read what IT says. Don't read it through the filter of what the RC church has taught you what it says.


Yes please do Susan. I did. And my reading brought me right back into the heart of the church founded by Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church.

1 Timothy 3:15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.


The truth isn't afraid of lies. Therefore, I don't care about those anti-Candy websites. However, lies are afraid of the truth, and that is why those anti-Candy websites exist.


We aren't afraid of the truth Candy, we proclaim it loudly. Which is why we let everyone read and comment. What's your excuse?





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Tuesday, June 10, 2008

Living Catholicism: Catholic Carnival 176: The Structures of Life

Living Catholicism: Catholic Carnival 176: The Structures of Life





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Sunday, June 8, 2008

Jeffrey Tucker's conversion story.

Antithesis at Reformed.org: "I am not hostile to Protestantism in general, and certainly not to Presbyterianism, to which I owe a great debt. I came to believe that Christ's Church subsists in Catholicism, which is why it has been so successful in defending orthodoxy and in standing against the tides of Christian sectarianism and atheistic modernism. Catholicism offers orthodoxy, universality, and stability.

Conversion was not an easy decision; the agonizing process lasted nearly three years. My final step was taken out of a conviction of truth, and it was a step I shall never regret."



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Young women who didn't get Sister Charlotte's memo!







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Saturday, June 7, 2008

Commenting Guidelines

When I started this little blog it was just to make sure that my comments to Candy were carefully documented so that she could not mislead, misguide or say something about my comments that were not true. The purpose of this blog has grown and developed overtime. It might morph into something else in the future.

Originally I struggled with wanting to allow ALL comments here, because Candy's commenting policies seemed very restrictive. I still believe that it is a disservice to the reader to post about a controversial topic, and then not allow dissenting albeit appropriate comments. I still feel that way. However, in the last couple of weeks I have also thought that in some ways Candy might have the right idea!. It's not any fun to keep finding rude, mean and antagonizing comments in your comment boxes. It goes with the territory I suppose - but its still not much fun.

So I would like to reintroduce to everyone our long-standing commenting policies, based on the guidelines of the Harris twins. I urge everyone to read them through. I am giving the Reader's Digest Condensed version below.

In a nutshell:

NUMBER ONE: Understand the ‘classical’ view of tolerance.
Hard on ideas and opinions, soft on people! We will not allow any personal comments against anyone, especially Candy on this blog. That means you can debate her theology all of you want. You can say things like, "That logic is whacked!"

You cannot say,
"She's whacked!"

There's a difference.

If I have any doubt in my mind at all about whether the comment is following #1, I'm just going to delete it. If you REALLY have something you need to say about anything, to vent, e-mail me. I'm a great listener (er...or reader in this case).

NUMBER TWO: “No ‘ad hominem’ attacks, you moron!”
Nothing more quickly degenerates a discussion than when people start attacking those making the arguments rather than refuting the arguments themselves. Remember that the character, circumstances, or political ideology of the person has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the proposition being defended.

This goes with #1. I am also not going to take personal comments against myself, Kelly or Erica. If you think I'm a bitch that's fine, just don't put it in the comments here. That's what e-mails are for! I have been particularly struck by the sola scriptura Christians who are unfamiliar with Matthew 18:15

King James Bible
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.



DO NOT stoop to name-calling (moron, idiot, etc.)
DO NOT imply negative monikers onto people simply because they disagree. (i.e. “Anyone who’s even slightly intelligent will believe that cows are people too.”)

NUMBER THREE: Eschew Obscenity & Prohibit Profanity
The use of inappropriate language and shocking statements is a sure sign that the author lacks the ability to communicate their position in a calm and reasonable manner. It shows tremendous disdain for others and will not be allowed on respectable blogs.(including this one!!)


Drop the F-bomb and watch how fast your comment will disappear!



NUMBER FOUR: He who asserts must prove.
This is one of the most critical aspects of proper argumentation and requires that you carefully guard yourself from making groundless statements. Every proposition should be supported by either logic or evidence.


NUMBER FIVE: Respond to the argument, not to the spelling.


DO feel free to point out significant errors that impact the validity of a claim.
DO NOT point out errors solely for the purpose of embarrassing your opponent. And before someone jumps all over me for this one... my bad, mea culpa. That comment is history!

NUMBER SIX: Debating When Less Is More.
A common tactic adopted by inexperienced debaters is to ask a long series of questions that place an enormous burden on their opposition, without actually making any particular point. Such an approach is not only unfair to your opponent, but it really isn’t argumentation at all. These kinds of “question avalanches” can hardly be responded to in the confines of a comment section, but will often foster animosity. THIS HAPPENS TO CATHOLICS ALL THE TIME! and it's not fair. Particularly when those asking don't really want to read the answers.
We have lots of archives here and a search engine. Chances are we've already answered your problems with Mary, the saints, the rosary, statues etc.

Check out my other post on How NOT to witness to a Catholic Christian.

NUMBER SEVEN: Do your own research.



NUMBER EIGHT: The fallacy of the majority.
When the majority of participants in a discussion hold your position, it is common to start acting as if the last seven principles no longer apply to you. You feel you can destroy the dissenter, along with their position, since you have so many like-minded chums. This too has happened to men on non-Catholic blogs. Here at VTC there are many of us who are likeminded. We have to be very aware that we do not attack differing views like a pack of wolves. We need to remain gracious and open.

NUMBER NINE: NEW!!! Stay on topic.
I like how comments in threads tend to weave and morph and turn into something else. Truly I do. But sometimes it is detrimental to what is happening on the blog and if I try to stop it by saying "It's off topic" then I get folks in my face complaining about "well you let so and so talk about her nephew's first communion!!" So stick to the point of the post.



OK, that's pretty much it. I'm pretty lenient and open minded and like to manage with a light touch. However because I want the comments to be open to all, I will remove posts without explanation if I feel they are violating the above.

Feedback is always welcome, no matter what the topic is. My e-mail is available at elljazz@gmail.com.



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Thursday, June 5, 2008

Jack Chick Collection

Although we never heard much about Dave Hunt, in the end, I see that Candy is now reading Smokescreens by Jack Chick. I thought I'd put up some Jack Chick links for reference.

Catholic Answers has an extremely in depth, six part article on Jack Chick publications.

Another article about Pius XII touches on Smokescreens specifically:

Jack Chick, infamous for his anti-Catholic comic books, tells us in Smokescreens, "When World War II ended, the Vatican had egg all over its face. Pope Pius XII, after building the Nazi war machine, saw Hitler losing his battle against Russia, and he immediately jumped to the other side when he saw the handwriting on the wall. . . . Pope Pius XII should have stood before the judges in Nuremberg. His war crimes were worthy of death."[2]

One is tempted simply to dismiss these accusations, so wildly out of touch with reality, as the deluded ravings of persons with no sense of historical truth. This would underestimate the power of such erroneous charges to influence people: Many take these writers at their word.

Stepping out of the nightmare fantasyland of Hunt and Chick and back into sunlight of the real world, we discover that, not only was Pius XII no friend of the Nazis, but that his opposition to them began years before the War, before he was elected to the papacy, when he was still Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli, the Vatican Secretary of State.
Articles from non-Catholic publications Cornerstone and Christianity Today are available here.

Is Alberto's story true? No! Our intensive investigation reveals his police record, his investment schemes, his bad check-writing, his contradictory testimony, his fabricated educational record, and his reported family abuse . . . Alberto Rivera, also known as Alberto Romero, has a history of legal entanglements. He is currently involved in a court action in Southern California, accused of fraud.


    Jack T. Chick has issued a three-page reply to Gary Metz's expose of Alberto Rivera . . . In his letter of March 25, 1981, co-signed by Rivera, Chick alleges that 'the systematic destruction of John Todd's ministry' is being repeated by the Vatican to destroy Alberto. (Todd claimed to have been one of the leaders of an international conspiracy of witches to set up Jimmy Carter as the Antichrist; Chick promoted Todd's story in earlier comic books.) Chick accuses Christianity Today and Cornerstone, both of whom ran exposes on John Todd, of furthering the cause of the 'antichrist in the Vatican.'

    A typical example of Chick's defense of Alberto: the evidence for Alberto's degrees disappeared because the Vatican 'erased Dr. Rivera's name from all directories in schools, seminaries, and colleges'; Rivera's former associates and acquaintances contradict his story because they are Vatican spies; the women he was involved with were from 'the Legion of Mary or Catholic Youth.' So with the magic wand of Vatican conspiracy, Rivera is exonerated from any evidence that can possibly be adduced against him.

    We feel that if Jack Chick really has a burden for Catholics, he needs to steer clear of fabrications and find a more reliable source of information.



Another non-Catholic organization, the Christian Research Institute weighs in on whether or not Catholicism is a cult. Jack Chick merits a mention, although more space is given to Dave Hunt.
Even with the significant areas of doctrinal agreement between Catholics and Protestants (see Part One), a notable number of Protestant fundamentalists insist that Catholicism is an anti-Christian cult. Organizations and individuals (some of them quite popular) who classify Catholicism as a cult include: Chick Publications, Alberto Rivera's Anti-Christ Information Center, Tony Alamo's Christian Foundation, Bill Jackson's Christians Evangelizing Catholics, Albert James Dager's Media Spotlight, and Dave Hunt's The Berean Call. (This is not to say that all of these people belong in the same category the latter three are more respectable than the former three.) Actually this is just a few of many individuals and organizations that classify Catholicism as an anti-Christian cult. Because their position receives a wide hearing in some evangelical circles, we must address their claim.


The Catholic League also weighs in:

In mind-numbing detail are a host of traditional anti-Catholic cites. From rural churches and personal websites, to sites for fundamentalist publishing houses, the traditional anti-Catholicism that was said to have died with the election of John F. Kennedy in 1960 thrives on the Internet. A major website is for the Jack Chick Company.16 Jack Chick was one of the first to realize in the post-Kennedy years that old-fashioned anti-Catholicism could still make a buck. He released a series of traditional anti-Catholic "comic books" in the 1970s, the most popular being Alberto. Alberto is the story of a man who claims to have been a Jesuit priest who worked under assignment from the Vatican. Murder and assassination – as well as the usual priestly licentiousness -- are common tools for the Holy See, according to the Chick comic book. Chick followed this up with a few other comics, though none as successful as the original Alberto. Chick, who publishes today out of California, also produces a range of small black-and-white tracts that viciously attack Catholic practices and beliefs. Perhaps the most tasteless among the tasteless is the "Death Cookie," that portrays the Eucharist as a Satanic-inspired ritual rooted in pagan beliefs. Chick also has reproduced classic anti-Catholic works such as "Father" Chiniquy’s "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome."17

Chick’s website is primarily a tool for selling his materials. As his advertising is routinely rejected as offensive in mainstream Christian periodicals, he has limited vehicles in which to reach an audience. He proclaims – as do most of the church-based anti-Catholic Internet sites – that his only goal is the conversion of Catholics to "bible-based" beliefs. But Chick does not bother to engage in honest dialogue, or honest argument, over Catholic beliefs. Rather, the Chick website, like so many others, peddles bombastic charges against the Church as knowingly teaching false doctrine and purposely sending souls to hell. This is ugly stuff.



Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin actually met Jack Chick:

I moved to the seat next to him (well, technically, next to his jacket), and when the well wishers moved on, I said “Excuse me, sir. Are you Jack Chick?”

“I am he replied,” smiling warmly. “What’s your name?”

“Jimmy Akin,” I replied. “It’s a pleasure to meet you, sir.”

We shook hands, and he asked me “What do you do?”

“I’m an evangelist.”

At this is face brightened. “Praise God!” But his eyes studied me a moment. Wearing a Stetson, cowboy boots, faded blue jeans, and a Texas belt buckle, I didn’t look like the typical suit-and-tie evangelist from Chick’s Fundamentalist world.

“I’ve read a lot of your comic tracts,” I said as he settled back into his seat.


While it isn't available to read online, Karl Keating's Catholicism and Fundamentalism discusses Jack Chick at length.

Ready to rinse that bad taste out of your mouth? Stop by the Curt Jester to read the parody Jack Chick-fil-A! Actually, I found plenty of parodies, but few that were clean enough to link to. This will have to suffice.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2008

Modest Dressing

Candy recently posted about how she came to be a "dresses only" Christian, which is something which she writes about periodically. I think it is a topic often of interest to Christian women.

The Catholic Church does not have a required position on whether or not women need to wear only dresses or skirts. Modesty is touched on in the Catechism:

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one's choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

The Vatican, and many individual Catholic churches, (usually the ones most prone to tourists) have a dress code which prohibits shorts and bared shoulders.

Catholic author Colleen Hammond wrote a book called Dressing With Dignity, and has a blog by the same name, here. It looks as if the more recent posts are focusing on modest fashions on the runway, but if you look through the archive of the first year or two, you will find more substantial posts on modesty and feminine dress.

Catholic blogger Helen at Castle of the Immaculate has a series of posts on modesty. She, like Candy, came to the conclusion that she should wear dresses or skirts only. But she won't wear anything shorter than 3/4 length sleeves! I admire her dedication!

Usually on this blog, we highlight our differences with Candy. But sometimes it is nice to mention the many things we share in common, and a commitment to modesty is one of those.


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Advanced Talk On Justification

As I believe I've said before, my area of interest runs to history of Christianity. Amy has run into my limits of explaining justification (hey, it makes sense to me!). I found that Catholic apologist (and convert) Dave Armstrong has a number of articles on justification on his website. Normally I would put up tantalizing excerpts, but he has too many for me to pick just a few.

Salvation, Justification, and "Faith Alone" on Dave Armstrong's Biblical Defense of Catholicism page.

So go let the professional explain it to you!

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Sabbatical News

While I'm taking my mini break, I'm going to be going through the archives and cleaning them up a bit. I am going to ruthlessly going through and deleting any ad hominem attacks (against Candy or other commenters. I know it seems twisted but I'm leaving other personal attacks up) or off topic remarks from the posts. Yea, hate to do it but ya know if I let one slip, in true 5th grade fashion, I hear about it.

I'm also going to be reworking the commenting guidelines and working on the side bar. So if you see me in their tweaking- don't be surprised!



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just another day of Catholic pondering: Catholic Carnival 175: Got Hosts?

just another day of Catholic pondering: Catholic Carnival 175: Got Hosts?





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Tuesday, June 3, 2008

Catholic Vocations Podcast

Catholic Vocations Podcast featuring Father Jonathan Meyers on his journey from Protestantism to the priesthood.
Catholic Vocations Podcast





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Monday, June 2, 2008

Sabbatical

My little break yesterday was so nice I think I'm going to extend it! Lots of doings here with the end of the regular school year, the start of summer homeschool, the nonstop presence of the neighborhood kids (whom I love to death but still), my 3-year-olds birthday and a problem I'm having with my oldest kid - plus all the other stuff like work, laundry, etc... it's a bit much. I'm going to regroup and re-focus. I'll be blogging solely at MDC (some planned articles) and bringing my homeschool blog up to date in the meantime. If I can get through the week I'll be doing great!
Enjoy the lovely spring/summer weather and see you in a few days.

(all the comments do come to my e-mail box and I check e-mail almost obsessively. If someone really needs me at elljazz@gmail.com is probably the most expedient way to go!)


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Sunday, June 1, 2008

Catholic Converts

I added the Catholic Convert blogroll to the side bar. Read real stories of real people who have actually gone through the conversion process!



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RCIA, Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults - My Answer to Maria

A commenter on Candy's www.keepingthehome blog writes:

Hi Candy. I'm sorry that i'm asking you this (and i am in no way trying to cause you more grief)
but why do you have to study for a long time to become a Catholic. Why do you have to have communion and sorts.
I ask this because my dear friend has recently married a Catholic man and he wants her to become catholic to.
What she is learning goes against everything she has learnt from the Bible. (We have Always been Bible Believing Christians)
Her Husband can't answer her because he doesn't know. Infact, Praise be to the Lord he is also starting to question his faith
(I think at the moment he's afraid to go against his mother,,poor thing!)
You are such an inspiration, and i know you will always tell the truth for the Lord.
I really do apologise and understand completely if this goes no further than me asking you.
Much Love being sent your way and God Bless you and your wonderful Family.


Dear Maria,
I hope that you will happen across this answer someday. I realize that I am not Candy, but I have been a Catholic for over 40 years, my grandfather was a convert, I have some friends who were converts, and I speak annually to our parish RCIA class - so I might know a little bit about it!

Would you buy a car without doing a little research? Or buy a major appliance? Would you marry a guy without spending a little time with him first? The answer is probably of course not! You would want to do some investigation and put some time into it before making a major investment with your time or money!

So why would you want your friend to join the Catholic church without putting some time into learning what it is all about and living it for a while? It makes no sense.

Don't be so sure that your friend's husband's questioning and studying is going to take him away from his Catholic faith. My husband and I studied our way right back into the heart of the church. Many Protestant ministers have done the same. So praise God indeed - questioning what one has "learnt" can be a good thing!

I thought this site had a good answer:

Once I have decided to join the Catholic Church, why might it take 1-2 years? That seems like a long time.
When someone comes forward with an interest in joining the Catholic Church, that interest is then to be joined with knowledge about the Church's traditions and teachings, as well as a sufficient experience of the Catholic faith community. Joining the Catholic Church is not about passing a test on Catholicism; rather it is about learning and living the Gospel of Jesus in the context of the parish and wider Catholic community. This takes time and it is suggested that one wishing to join the Church experience at least one full liturgical year of the Catholic faith community.

Adult baptisms are celebrated each year at the Easter Vigil (the Saturday night before Easter Sunday), which occurs each year in the Spring. If one comes to the parish in December with a desire to be baptized and to join the Church, the following Easter would only be approximately 4 months away. This is not sufficient time for someone to experience the fullness of the Catholic faith Church and community. This "December seeker" would be welcomed into the RCIA process, would journey with a fellow group of seekers each week, and would most likely be baptized and initiated into the Catholic Church approximately 16 months later. If one comes to the parish in the spring having made a decision to join the church, depending on the level of preparation needed, that person may be deemed ready to be initiated into the church at the following Easter, which would be approximately 12 months later.

The goal in joining the Catholic Church is not to be baptized, although the Sacrament of Baptism is a priceless gift from our God. The goal is to grow in your love and awareness of God, to begin or build on your relationship with Jesus Christ, and to learn how the Catholic faith community lives out this call. Baptism is part of the journey but not a finish line to sprint towards. Joining the Church is a process of shaping our hearts, minds, and spirits so they look more like God's. The rich exploration of faith is not a race, but a journey to be savored, reflected upon, and celebrated.


The RCIA people I have met enjoyed the journey and the process. I hope some of our converted Catholics will share some of their experiences in this thread.

God Bless you Maria and I hope you will pray for your friend and her husband (and try not to meddle in their marriage!)

In Christ,

Elena






RCIA Manual/Archdiocese of Military


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The Catholic Cult

Candy freely and often refers to Catholicism as a "cult." Most people who consider Catholicism a cult have received information from Jack Chick and Dave Hunt. Click on their names to learn the false nature of their claims.

Is Catholicism really a cult?

On her recent exchange with Angie, commenter Suzanne offered this helpful link:

There is an excellent Christian apologetics site I use often www.carm.org. On the sidebar is listed "cults" and there is info on the different movements with testimonies of those that have left their churches. He is thorough and his information is accurate and reliable.
CARM is a well-respected organization among evangelicals and fundamentalists. CARM does has a section on Roman Catholicism, however, Catholicism is not on their list of cults. Regarding Catholicism, CARM writes:

It is necessary to write a page on Roman Catholicism because there are significant differences between Protestant and Roman Catholic doctrines. Protestants accuse the Catholics of being unscriptural, and the Catholics state that the Protestants do not have the true faith carried through the centuries by the Catholic Church. Which ever side you fall on, the real issue is whether or not the Roman Catholic Church is representing true Christianity.
I did not read through the large section on Catholicism completely, but I would say that they seem to be really trying to be fair. For example, read this section on the sacrifice of the Mass:

Roman Catholics are quick to say that the Eucharist is not a re-sacrifice of Christ. They want to make it clear that Christ was offered once for all and that the Mass is not a re-sacrifice but a "re-presentation" of the sacrifice. We certainly do not want to misrepresent Roman Catholic theology, but we must ask how it is possible for the Mass to not be a re-sacrifice of Christ when the Mass is called a divine sacrifice (CCC 1068) that is done over and over again. We are told that "the sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice" (CCC 1367); that it is an unbloody offering that is propitiatory (CCC 1367); that it can make reparation of sins (CCC 1414); and is to be considered a true and proper sacrifice (The Catholic Encyclopedia, topic of 'Sacrifice of the Mass'). We must conclude that it is a sacrifice that occurs over and over again; and since it is said to be a true and proper sacrifice that is propitiatory, then logically it must be a re-sacrifice of Christ.

On various pages that I viewed, the Catholic Catechism was the primary source which they used for stating Catholic doctrine, but I also saw Catholic Encyclopedia, the Baltimore Catechism, and the Council of Trent quoted. While they clearly don't understand the finer points of Catholic theology, I applaud them for making a real effort to represent our doctrines.

There are secular cult related organizations, such as the Cult Awareness and Information Centre. CARM uses similar criteria as secular organizations to determine whether or not a religious system is a cult. While I didn't find the same exact list of criteria on every site I checked, here is a general list:

1. Charismatic leader which claims special revelation.

Well, we certainly have a leader who is recognized world-wide and draws huge crowds. However, unlike the Mormon prophet, our Pope wouldn't be able to suddenly announce that polygamy is allowed. The Pope is limited in the changes he is able to make.

For answers to common questions about the papacy (infallibility, anyone?) read here.

2. Very controlling of their members, using psychological manipulation and dire consequences for leaving.

Considering the huge number of ex-Catholics, we can hardly be accused of making is difficult to leave. Unlike the Amish, we don't even automatically excommunicate people who leave. Candy has said that they are still in contact with her Catholic father-in-law, so her husband hasn't been shunned for leaving. I would say this is a no.

3. Demanding members to give a considerable amount financially.

Catholics are notoriously bad tithers. I think we are innocent on this charge.

4. Claims to exclusively hold the complete truth.

Okay, we're guilty there. But we think other Christians can have parts of the Truth!

CARM elaborates here: "often considers traditional religious systems to be apostate and it alone possess the complete truth." Of course, we ARE the traditional Christian religious system!

5. Apocalyptic

We do look for the second coming of Jesus, but considering most Catholics don't know what the Rapture is, I would say no to this one.

6. Isolationist

Some Catholics do socialize primarily with Catholics, but the same can be said for other church groups. There have been no accusations that I'm aware of that when a person becomes Catholic, they are forced to leave their previous family and friends behind.

In conclusion, while Candy is free to disagree with us theologically, I do not think she can objectively say that we are a cult. We do not meet the criteria of either secular or Christian based cult awareness organizations.

Read a follow-up to this post, Catholic Cult Revisited.

If you are new to our website, you can find links to some of our other posts about Catholicism here.

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For Praisethelord

Praisethelord wrote:

Please define the difference between "Tradition" and "tradition" when you get a chance. Where would the Immaculate Conception of Mary, Perpetual Virginity of Mary, Assumption of Mary, and Co-Mediator teachings fall? Thank you!

Welcome to the blog, Praisethelord!

The Catholic Church does differentiate between "Tradition" and "tradition."

Tradition with a capitol 'T' refers to defined doctrines regarding faith and morals, which cannot be changed. It is made up of both Holy Scripture, and oral or written traditions which have been passed down through the centuries. For example, which books are in the Bible canon are Tradition, as they are not listed in the Bible. The vast majority of Tradition is composed of doctrines which almost all of Christianity agrees upon. For example, the Incarnation or the nature of the Trinity.

Usually, the Catholic Church only formally defines doctrines which they begin to be questioned. For example, the earliest doctrines were regarding the nature of the Trinity, because very early in Christianity, people questioned whether Jesus was equal to God, whether He had the same Divine nature.

Hence, the Nicene Creed, which states that Jesus was:

God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.

That is Tradition, which is now formally defined.

Similarly, various Marian doctrines were not formally defined until after the Reformation, because they were accepted until then. Martin Luther believed both in Mary's Perpetual Virginity, and in her Immaculate Conception.

I think most non-Catholics think of Marian doctrines as add-ons from the Middle Ages, but really, most date from the earliest times, 100-300 years A.D. Catholic Answers has quotations from the Early Church Fathers on the titles Ever Virgin, Full of Grace, and Mother of God.

The Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity of Mary, and her Assumption have been formally defined, and thus would fall under Tradition. Mary has not been formally defined as "Co-Mediatrix," but I believe this would probably still fall under Tradition, as it is also a very ancient view, and so the Church would be extremely unlikely to say that she is not "Co-Mediatrix."

There is a movement within the Catholic Church to formally define this title, but personally, I think it better to leave it undefined because it is so often misunderstood. I'm going to cut-and-paste from a previous post, here.

The Catholic Catechism, paragraph #1544 states: Everything that the priesthood of the Old Covenant prefigured finds its fulfillment in Christ Jesus, the "one mediator between God and men." The Christian tradition considers Melchizedek, "priest of God Most High," as a prefiguration of the priesthood of Christ, the unique "high priest after the order of Melchizedek"; "holy, blameless, unstained," "by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified," that is, by the unique sacrifice of the cross.

Considering Mary as mediatrix does not negate Jesus as the One Mediator. This is a difference in understanding what is meant by mediatrix. When Catholics refer to Mary as Mediatrix, we saying that God entered the world through her. Jesus was physically born by a woman, and that woman was Mary. Because she cooperated with God, by saying yes to him, Jesus was able to enter the world.

Does this mean our salvation depends on her? No. But because she cooperated with God, God worked through her (mediated), and so she has been known from the earliest time of Christianity as Theotokos, or God-Bearer.

Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong gives a great answer to this question on his website:

7) So, just as we are allowed the unfathomable privilege of participating in our own redemption, likewise God willed that the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, the Immaculate one, the perpetual Virgin, the Second Eve, would play a part in the Redemption of all, by consenting to the Sacrifice on the Cross of her Son, who was God in the flesh. She doesn't (solely and sufficiently) cause the Redemption any more than we (solely and sufficiently) cause our own redemption. Her role is to freely assent and to bear the suffering in her immaculate heart that Jesus bore in His Sacred Heart (hence those two devotions in Catholic theology).

8) "Co" in Latin does not mean "equal"; it merely means "with" or "alongside." We see this even in English. If you have a "co-pay" with regard to health insurance, that doesn't mean that you always pay equally with your insurance provider (I sure hope not!). "Co-Pilot" sometimes means "equal" but usually not. Etc. But because the term Co-Redemptrix is so misunderstood, it has fallen out of use in the last 50 years or so. But nevertheless, Pope John Paul II has used it at least five times, as Dr. Miravelle notes.

9) This was God's marvelous plan - to involve a creature and a woman at every step of the way, so as to achieve a certain "balance" - if I may properly speak in such a way. Eve brought down the human race, acting with Adam; Mary helped to raise it, acting in concert with Jesus Christ, her Son, the second Adam (as Paul describes Him). If Satan could cause the fall of the human race through the frailty of Woman and Man, why is it not plausible that God could in turn bring about the Redemption of the human race in part through the Immaculate Mary, the Second Eve, the Theotokos? To me it all makes eminent sense. It is contrary neither to Scripture nor to common sense and reason.
Tradition with a small 't' are things which are customary in the Church, but can be changed. For example, requiring celibacy for priests is a tradition, while reserving ordination for men is a Tradition. Other traditions include fasting regulations, what sort of sacred vessels can be used for Mass, whether to sprinkle or dunk for Baptism.

For a really good explanation of Tradition, I suggest reading an article by Mark Shea, who is a convert to Catholicism. Here are a few excerpts.

This pattern of seeing Scripture in light of Sacred Tradition is absolutely crucial to understand, because failure to grasp it accounts for an enormous amount of misunderstanding. Evangelicals who have received (usually without realizing it) a pair of contact lenses colored by the Tradition of the Closure of Public Revelation can "see" that Tradition implied in Paul's commands to Timothy. Yet we do not derive the doctrine from Scripture. Rather, we see it reflected there. But since Evangelicals have not received the contact lenses with the Tradition of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, they are unable to see it reflect there. Instead, they imagine that doctrine is arrived at by Catholics sitting down with a Bible and saying, "Let's see. What is the most tortured and extreme reading I can get out of Matthew 1:25 today? Hey! Let's say Mary remained a virgin perpetually!"

In reality, however, Catholics see the Perpetual Virginity of Mary reflected in Scripture in just the same way the Council of Jerusalem saw the Circumcision Exemption reflected in Amos and Evangelicals see the Closure of Public Revelation reflected in Paul's command to Timothy. The Church does not sit down and derive the dogma from the tortured reading of a few isolated texts of Scripture. Rather, it places the Scripture in the context of the Tradition handed down by the apostles and the interpretive office of the bishops they appointed.

In this context, we discover not explicit, but implicit testimony to the doctrine, while those verses which appear to speak of Jesus' siblings or Mary's relations with Joseph after the birth of Christ can easily be understood in a way compatible with her perpetual virginity. We find, for instance, that mention of Jesus "brothers" can mean "cousins" in the first century Jewish milieu. We find that Matthew 1:25 need not necessarily imply anything about Mary's subsequent sexual relations with Joseph any more than "Michal had no children till the day of her death" implies that Michal had children after her death. We also find Mary-a woman betrothed-is astonished at Gabriel's proclamation that "You will bear a son." This is an odd thing for a betrothed woman to be astonished about. After all, a betrothed woman could expect and hope to bear many sons... unless she had already decided to remain a virgin even after marriage. Then she would be astonished at the prophecy.

We find also the New Testament subtly but clearly identifies Mary with the Ark of the Covenant, wherein dwelt the Presence of God. Luke 1:35 speaks of the power of the Most High "overshadowing" Mary just as the Shekinah glory overshadowed the Ark (Numbers 9:15). John does the same thing in Revelation, juxtaposing the Ark (Rev 11:19) with an image of a woman clothed with the sun who gives birth to a "male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." (Rev. 12:5). The connection between Mary and the Ark, once it is made by with the help of Sacred Tradition, is hard not to see. Knowing the identity of Mary's "male child" it would be an easy mental connection for any pious Jew to immediately think of her as a kind of Second Ark.

Well, one such pious Jew was a certain Joseph of Nazareth who, after his dream (Mt 1:23) did know the identity of Mary's "male child." He also knew, as a Jew steeped in the Old Testament, what happens to people who touch the Ark without authorization (2 Sm 6:6-8). So it becomes very psychologically probable that Joseph, knowing what he knew, also would have chosen celibacy in this rather unusual situation. And so, in short, the Sacred Tradition of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, like Sacred Tradition of the Closure of Public Revelation, turns out to illuminate Scripture in an unexpected and yet satisfying way. Which is why the Church of the sixth century knows and defines (at the Second Council of Constantinople), that Mary is Ever-Virgin even though it is not written explicitly in the New Testament any more than the words "After the apostles die, there will be no new revelation." For the Second Council of Constantinople, knowing what the Council of Jerusalem knew, acts like the Council of Jerusalem did: operating in light of the apostolic Tradition that Mary was Ever-Virgin, the Church reads Scripture accordingly and sees its Tradition reflected there.


You can read my defense of Sacred Tradition here.

I hope this helped answer your questions, and let me know if you have any more.


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I don't know Kelly's plans but I am not going to be around much today. Today is my birthday!! and my family and I are going on a bike ride down the bike trail. A bike ride... with all six kids! How about that!

So play nice! See ya!



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